The highly anticipated third film in the wildly popular Twilight series opens today. Twilight was named one of Publishers Weekly's Best Children's Books of 2005. The novel was also the biggest selling book of 2008. To date, it has sold almost 20 million copies worldwide, spent over 91 weeks on the New York Times Best Seller list, and been translated into 37 different languages. The first two movies—Twilight and New Moon—took in a sensational $1.1 billion at the box office. In 2009 and 2010, the movies topped the teen choice awards, and swept virtually all the categories at the MTV Movie Awards. Twilight has become the hottest love story of our time. It’s a teen rage, and a significant cultural phenomenon.
The question that I always ask, when I see something so grip the hearts and minds of women, is “Why?”. And it was this question that was foremost in my mind when I finally sat down a couple weeks ago to watch and analyze the first two movies.
Personally, I could barely stomach the prolonged furtive glances, pained expressions, and shallow, banal dialogue that passed between Edward and Bella. But setting that aside, I think I understand the story’s attraction to young teen girls.
To begin, the saga portrays “traditional” roles for male and female at a time when it is highly counter-cultural to do so. Bella isn’t a male-kicking, karate-chopping, independent, domineering heroine. She’s gentle, soft, and vulnerable. Her character flies in the face of the tough-girl image that’s portrayed by most contemporary movies. I think young girls intuitively know that the prevalent portrayal of women as tough doesn’t match who they are. The average teen senses that she’s not wired that way. She longs to be the princess in a traditional fairy tale romance. She wants to be a woman. And she wants a man to be a man.
A young woman intuitively yearns for someone who will pursue her, protect her, and cherish her beauty and vulnerability. She yearns for a man to love her at a deep personal and emotional level—and not just a physical, sexual one. Regardless of culture's attempts at egalitarian brainwashing, the man of her dreams is still a strong, handsome prince charming who fights for her, and rescues her. He loves her, commits to her, and selflessly sets aside personal interest for the sake of her best interest.
Edward fits the bill.
It’s not surprising that young girls are falling for him. But sadly, their enthusiasm for being the leading lady in a heart-gripping romance lacks discernment. The movie grips them at such a deep emotional level that they shrug off the glaring warnings that indicate that this particular relationship is unhealthy. It’s a counterfeit version of a fairy-tale romance. It looks good and attractive on the surface, but the underlying darkness in Edward will most certainly lead to disaster for Bella. It may go well for a time, but in the end, it will kill her. She’s playing with fire, and she’s going to get burned.
Danger Signs
If Bella were my daughter, several alarm bells would be going off in my head about her relationship with Edward. I would not approve. Regardless of how “in love” she felt, I would argue that this romance was not good for her, and would not end well. It would ultimately be bad and not good for her soul. There are some very clear danger signs in their relationship that I would flag:
1. Bad Boy Attraction
Edward has a dark side. A very dark side. Twilight author, Stephenie Meyer, has stated that the apple on the cover represents the forbidden fruit from the Book of Genesis. It symbolizes Bella and Edward's love, which is forbidden, similar to the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, as implied by the quote from Genesis 2:17 at the beginning of the book. The apple also represents Bella's knowledge of what good and evil are, and the choice that she must make. She must decide if she’s going to indulge in a relationship with Edward--the "forbidden fruit"—or to stay away from him. There’s something about the “forbidden fruit” of a relationship with a bad boy that attracts young women. I would warn my daughter that this attraction is deceptive, and very, very dangerous.
2. Shared Dark Secrets
A second sign of a bad relationship is when a young woman feels she must keep something about her relationship or love interest hidden and secret—especially from her parents. A shared dark secret forms a bond that is unhealthy. It puts up a barrier to prevent the loving scrutiny and helpful input of family and friends. It prevents people from offering outside objective feedback. Darkness loves to remain hidden. If something needs to be hidden, then the relationship is likely bad. I would tell Bella that if she could not be completely open with us about who Edward was, or what the two of them were doing together, then the relationship was probably ungodly and unhealthy and needed to end.
3. “Us” versus “Them” Mentality
An “us versus them” mentality is another warning sign. Whenever a woman feels that “no one understands” and that she needs to “side” with her boyfriend against family and friends, chances are that the relationship is not a good one. When Bella started dating Edward, she felt that it was the two of them fighting against all odds, and against all the naysayers that wouldn’t approve. The two of them were going to overcome all the obstacles, and prove that they were right, and everyone else was wrong. This is a danger sign. If you feel like you need to choose sides—to side with a love interest against your family, and hunker down together “us” against “them”—the relationship probably isn’t a healthy one.
4. Isolation and Seclusion
Isolation and seclusion is another mark of an unhealthy relationship. If an unmarried young man and woman spend most their time together alone—apart from family and friends, their relationship isn’t healthy. Healthy relationships are forged in the context of community. If a love interest isolates you from family and friends, and interferes with you building and maintaining other relationships, then that relationship is not good for you. Bella had very few relationships outside of Edward. The two of them became loners that stuck to one another, spent the bulk of their free time together, and didn’t develop healthy community connections.
5. Mismatched Interests and Values
The thing that concerns me the most about the Twilight saga is the underlying message that it’s possible to mix light and dark—good and bad—together. That’s a concept that’s reflected in the title of the series. “Twilight” is the period of dimness that exists when the light is growing weaker, and the darkness is growing stronger. But the book’s message is that with a bit of effort on everyone’s part, dark and light can be mixed together-a state of twilight can exist forever. And indeed, many young Christian girls think that this is the case. They think that daughters of light can hang out with, hook up with, and even marry sons of darkness.
The problem is that the vampire, Edward, has no soul. He is darkness. He is irredeemable—he can’t change. He will eternally, immortally be a slave of darkness. But Bella is human. She has a soul. Tragically, because of her association with Edward, she is in danger of losing it. They are mismatched. The clear message of the Bible is that light has no business pairing up with darkness. Ultimately, light and darkness cannot coexist. Darkness and light cannot come together as one.
I would warn Bella against a spiritual mismatch. I would also warn her against the mismatch in their ages (he’s 110, she’s 17... really???!!!), their education (he’s gone to school for decades, she isn’t even finished high school), their cultural upbringing (He drinks blood, she doesn’t. She eats food, he doesn’t.), and their values (He is a vampire, after all. Even though he’s “nice,” he still engages in vampire-ish and occultist practices—just like “nice” white witches are still involved in witchcraft, and nice cocaine addicts still have an addiction to cocaine.).
A severe mismatch does not lend itself well to a good, lasting marriage. This is particularly the case when the mismatch is one of spiritual darkness versus light.
6. Neediness and Obsession
Bella is needy. She’s obsessed with Edward. He is all she thinks about. When Edward breaks up with her, she sinks into a deep depression. She feels she can’t live without him. The movie implies that she becomes suicidal. She throws herself off a cliff and tries to drown in order to connect with Edward. She cares about Edward more than she cares about her relationship with God, and more than she cares about her life. She’s entirely willing to forfeit her soul for her need of Edward.
Edward is also needy. He stalks Bella and watches her continually. He even sneaks into her room and watches her while she sleeps. He shows up in her head in visions and speaks to her. (In my opinion, it’s downright creepy.)
I would warn Bella against neediness. I’d tell her that if she feels so desperate for Edward that she can’t live without him, then learning to live without him is the very thing she most needs to do. I would warn her not to rely on men for her sense of self-worth, identity, or happiness. I would tell her that the only one she truly needs is Jesus. And in order to have a healthy marriage, she needs to work on cultivating inner strength and wholeness, based on a personal relationship with Christ. A needy relationship is bad news. Needy women go through a revolving door of relationships, from one “Edward” to the next. I would want Bella to know that there is no man on the face of this earth that will meet the deep desires of her heart. Only Jesus can do that.
7. Rationalization and Justification
Another sign of a bad relationship is when a woman feels the need to rationalize and justify it. Bella rationalized being in a relationship with a vampire. She reasoned that since he was such a nice vampire, and was trying really hard to behave, and restrained his desire to bite and kill her, that somehow his niceness and self-control and love made their relationship okay. She rationalized the lies, deceit, and compromise by thinking that it was all for the greater good. She self-importantly thought that she was helping him. She was the only one who truly understood him and the only one who could give him the love he needed. She was the only one who completely accepted him and saw the good in him. She rationalized things so that she could convince herself that her bad boy wasn’t really all that bad.
But a vampire is a vampire. Bella cannot give a vampire a soul and make him human. No amount of rationalization on her part can justify their relationship or the risk she is exposing herself to. A good relationship doesn't require rationalization and justification. It is self-evident that it is good.
8. Failure to Seek & Heed Input
Bella doesn’t confide in her parents about the nature of her relationship with Edward. Nor does she seek counsel from any other friends or family. When her father tries to give her some advice, she shrugs it off as inconsequential. She knows better. No one else understands.
If Bella were my daughter, I’d notice these danger signs, and I’d warn her loudly and clearly about falling for a counterfeit version of true romance. I’d worry. I’d pray. I’d ask the Lord to break it up. Because although Edward is cute and seems so nice, he’s undeniably dangerous.
In the real world, the Bellas who fall for the Edwards usually don’t live happily ever after. In the real world, twilight turns to night. In the real world, far too many parents watch the light in their precious Bellas grow dim, and slowly be engulfed by darkness.
I am perplexed by Christians who uphold Twilight as a desirable model for dating or relationships. I don’t understand why believing mothers fail to discern the good from the bad, and fail to discuss the deception in the Twilight message with their daughters. Bella had an absentee mother. And sadly, that's the case with many young women today.
Yes, I know, it’s just a movie. But it’s not an innocuous message. It contains an oh-so-subtle temptation for our daughters to throw caution to the wind and give their hearts away to bad boys--to think that good and bad are relative and don't really matter--to take the Twilight apple in hand, become enamored with the deceptive promise it holds, and to carelessly indulge.
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Comments
I really liked these two paragraphs in your post: "To begin, the saga portrays “traditional” roles for male and female at a time when it is highly counter-cultural to do so. Bella isn’t a male-kicking, karate-chopping, independent, domineering heroine. She’s gentle, soft, and vulnerable. Her character flies in the face of the tough-girl image that’s portrayed by most contemporary movies. I think young girls intuitively know that the prevalent portrayal of women as tough doesn’t match who they are. The average teen senses that she’s not wired that way. She longs to be the princess in a traditional fairy tale romance. She wants to be a woman. And she wants a man to be a man.
A young woman intuitively yearns for someone who will pursue her, protect her, and cherish her beauty and vulnerability. She yearns for a man to love her at a deep personal and emotional level—and not just a physical, sexual one. Regardless of culture's attempts at egalitarian brainwashing, the man of her dreams is still a strong, handsome prince charming who fights for her, and rescues her. He loves her, commits to her, and selflessly sets aside personal interest for the sake of her best interest."
SO true! And Jesus only is our strong, handsome Prince Charming who fights for us, rescues us, loves us, commits to us, and selflessly sets aside personal *comfort*, at least, for the sake of our best interest. This is what I like to convey to young women.
Thanks, Mary!
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 7:34 am
I dont view Twlight as any different from any other fantasy book. I mean, really, vampires?
Just my viewpoint. We need to TEACH our children the difference between fantasy and the real world.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 8:30 am
This is not for us and our family, and that's a very unpopular stand to have to make during these teenage years. I know she thinks I'm just mean and out to destroy her fun, but her heart is so precious to me. There are enough things in this world working to lure her with the forbidden, and we don't need to add this to the mix.
"But, Mom! I am the ONLY one who can't see these movies or read the books. I don't have ANYTHING to talk to my friends about!" Oh, how many times have we heard (or recited) the verses to this song!
It's hard taking this stand, but as a mother, I've been given stewardship of the hearts and minds of my precious children. Thank you for helping me explain this in a clear, biblical way. I can't choose obedience to Christ for her, but I can plant hedges.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 9:03 am
I don't feel like there are any "girl" movies out there. I thought I would rent Julie and Julia, which was going to be my first girl movie in many years. It had quite a few vulgar things in it that I haven't seen in the twilight movies so far. And truthfully - the twilight movies are about a thousand cleaner than the conversation among the teens at our Wed. night worship and sooo cleaner than many of their facebook pictures and posts. So I think I'll just enjoy the good clean parts and discuss the bad like I would Cinderella and Snow White. Your post will greatly help me cover all the things I should in discussion.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 9:08 am
Anyhow, that doesn't really matter as much as the question I have when other mothers dismiss this book as evil - how is it any different than classic books, like Romeo and Juliet, which New Moon is obviously based on (the camera even goes as far as to pause on that book that Bella is reading). I'm not saying that R&J doesn't have unhealthy themes that should be discussed with our girls, but would you banish them?
I would much rather my daughter read (first) and then watch the movies with me and be willing to discuss the themes and dangerous ideas openly than to banish all books and push her towards reading/watching behind my back, thus making them all the more alluring.
How else are we to teach discernment?
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 9:18 am
I have not, nor to I care to read these books or see the movie. The picture and titles and short descrpitions are enough for me to know as a Christian I do NOT want any part of this in my mind.
Mary, I cannot thank you enough for shedding light on this. I have printed it off and will share it with others including my daughter and Christian friends that see "no harm" in it. Oh the little foxes that spoil the viens!
Mary, I appreicate your bold approach to God's Word and our role as His daughters.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 9:22 am
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 9:26 am
Do we value what God values?
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 9:48 am
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 10:02 am
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 10:04 am
I read them before I was enlightened by others to the fact that I am bad Christian for reading them. I read a lot of fantasy literature.
I think this was a good article, with some things to be aware of and careful of. I would encourage Christian women though to be very careful of becoming pious and cruel.
The last time there was a Twilight thread I felt so bad about myself I did not come back to True Woman for weeks and weeks. It was not a "Holy Spirit conviction" kind of bad, but a "Wow, I did not see anything wrong with this, and these women think it is salvation issue and I must not love God enough" kind of bad. I think we just need to be careful in the way we deal with each other.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 10:29 am
Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments regarding "Twilight." Your analysis of the movie is well thought out, and I love how you filter the message of the movie through the Word of God. You are a wise mom, and I pray other moms will heed your wisdom!
Kari W--I appreciated your comments, too. I know that God will give you His grace and strength as you seek to make decisions that may not be popular with your daughter, but ones that you feel are God-honoring and that will protect her heart. It's hard to swim upstream, but you are not alone!
Blessings,
Arlene
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 10:35 am
Of course we don't NEED to see ANY movies at all. But if we do, I can't think of any we can point to as good. I heard so much good about Blind Side - but the woman in that movie was also not anywhere near the example of a godly woman for my girls. At least with twilight, we're all noticing the bad?? It seems for more dangerous to me when everyone lifts up the domineering woman in blind side.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 10:39 am
A few people have corrected me on the cliff-diving scene. I was basing my impression on the movie alone, and hadn't read the book. Bella was obviously in a state of depression, so it appeared to both me and my husband (and my sons too) that she was attempting suicide-- but even if we misinterpreted that scene, it doesn't negate the fact that Bella was needy and obsessive with Edward, which is a mark of an unhealthy relationship.
Whether moms allow daughters to watch the movie is a personal decision, but hopefully my points will provide a framework for discussion, so that those who do watch it will do so with discernment.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 10:40 am
1. Edward knows all the things that you are listing, he knows he doesn't have a soul he knows he is dark. But his family chooses to make the best of the situation that they can.
2. The biggest to me is Edwards morals and respect for Bella. He refuses to have sex with until they are married. While they both address that there is a temptation he knows the right thing to do is respect her and wait tell they are married.
Now know these books aren't perfect and you do have some valued points with bella's dependency depression. I agree with the post above we can't keep our children in boxes so letting them watch and read (atleast they are reading and not sitting in front of the television) and DISCUSS with them. Are we to afraid to discuss right and wrong, are we to lazy?
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 10:47 am
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 10:48 am
We are called to be "watchmen" on the wall for our kids and not to be influenced by the world. Think of it as a huge, crystal clear, pure vat of drinking water that you are being nourished from and someone adding one tiny drop of cyanide or a rat dropping. Would you want to drink it after that? Wouldn't that taint the whole vat? Oh how I wish those who consider themselves "God's people" would open their eyes and take His Word seriously. It breaks my heart to see the "Church" playing the "harlot" with this world. It only brings death and death is what is being glamorized everywhere you look. It has become acceptable to dress like you want attention, watch anything that Hollywood puts out, be entertained by all sorts of unprofitable, ungodly things, water down the absolute truth of God and His commandments and try to get to heaven on the wide and broad path that leads to death. Ladies, please reconsider what you are allowing your children to absorb into their tender souls and go to God's Word (the ultimate and only authority) for the truth and what He has to say about the world and all the lusts of the flesh that destroy the soul.
There will never be revival until God's people turn from their sin and humble themselves and admit they have compromised.
I am sorry if I offend or sound preachy but I am never sorry to speak the truth and will never be ashamed of following God's commandments. May we all seek light and run from darkness...........
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 10:51 am
I love the points you all are making that we measure things to the Bible, not to the world. We need to fiercely protect our girls' hearts and minds from the lies of this world. Fiercely protect, not merely tolerate or mildly discuss.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 11:08 am
In answer to Donna, "How do you teach discernment"? Well, not by taking in the untruths, but by knowing the truth of God's Word, so that when you see or hear things that are not true, you are able to identify them on the spot.
Thanks, Mary for doing just that!! I pray that Mom's would be discerning and that daughters would listen.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 11:27 am
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 11:34 am
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 11:36 am
To get the full story, you must read the books before you see the movie or you will be misled by such scenes as the cliff scene and will interepret wrong representations from the story.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 11:58 am
My children are grown adults so I am not having issues with teenage girls who feel outcast by parents who feel strongly that the movie is not appropriate for their young psyches to digest. But as a Christian, I feel we have allowed so much mixing of light and darkness that the lines are much too murky to see and we have become desensitized to many things God says are sin.
I first became somewhat passionate about this with the Harry Potter series. My children were in high school then. I heard many people claim, but Harry is a good wizard, he uses his powers for good--what is the difference between this and the fairy tales? My first answer would be that witchcraft and sorcery are all evil. The power for any of it would not be from God so from where would it come? Where does Edward's power come from? My second rebutal would be that with the fairy tales, there was never a diffusion of light and darkness. You knew who the villians were and you knew who the heroines/heroes were. In a follow up conversation, I could say to my children, "look how God had a plan for Cinderella's life" or "look how God protected Hansel and Gretel against the witch". I'm not sure how I would address God's role in Twilight.
Another thing that I have concerns about is obsession. Our obesesssion for all things Hollywood. The older I get, the more I detest most things Hollywood. Yes, I go to movies that are rated a PG 13 or milder. But I worry about young people who post comments constantly about movies or television shows. I will not die if I miss the most recent episode of Lost or some reality show or didn't get a ticket for the midnight viewing of Eclipse. I don't understand. Maybe I'm just old!
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 12:14 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 12:56 pm
Edward's father, Carlisle Cullen, was not only raised by a pastor, but was one himself. The book discusses how his faith actually made him rise above the nature of a vampire to become a doctor and save people. He strives to hold onto a little bit of humanity, and he passed that onto the members of his family.
While Carlisle believes that there is an afterlife, and that possibly vampires aren't damned, Edward is more skeptical. He believes that they will be punished for what they are, and he does not want that to happen to Bella. It is his questions that makes him confront Bella's cavalier attitude about losing her soul. The theme is an excellent discussion point for parents and teens who do read the books, because they can apply to the choices Christian teens make every day.
Pro-life Christians may also find the unwanted pregnancy in the series to be of great interest. While this pregnancy puts the life of a main character in grave danger, her decision is to keep the baby. For people who are pro-choice the discussion remains. The choice was given to the character to "take care of it," and she made the choice.
The desire of Bella to become a vampire is controversial, but the way it is handled appeases many Christians. The main characters of the novels were not "changed" by choice, but changed by circumstance. This theme is important to the Christian life, because we must know how to face our circumstances and hold onto our faith. The desire of Edward to not change Bella demonstrates to many Christians just how precious the soul is, and how he does not want to take away a viable human life. In Edward's case, he was going to die anyhow, and that is when Carlisle changed him. The Cullens value human life, and it is a lesson many people today can learn.
The debate about the sexual nature of the characters continues between opponents and proponents of the Twilight saga. While Edward is against sex before marriage, Bella is willing to hand over her virginity. Her fear of marriage stems from what many teens today face - the divorce of her parents and the effect it had on her mother.
Some Christians are bothered by the feelings expressed when Bella and Edward kiss and touch, but some are uplifted that Edward overcomes the temptations in order to wait. The intense chemistry between the two characters sets an example for Christian teens that just because the desire is there, it does not mean you have to act on it.
There are some Christian themes that flow through the series. As a mother, I think its best to allow my teens to see the movie and then discuss the good/bad.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 1:06 pm
Non-believers already think living a christian life is about a bunch of "dont's" because we have projected that image. We need to allow our children to be children in the real world and and teach them right from wrong so they will grow up well adversed and be able to pass on the trait. Shielding children rarely ever turns out positive. Let them read the book, see the movie and then be a "big girl mommie " and discuss the issues with them! Its really not that difficult!
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 1:15 pm
But what I keep coming back to in my mind is - what movies do you ladies let your teens see? I just don't know of any better stuff out there. Yes, I know we can just stay home - do you do that? Do you never go to movies? We have Christian movies. We have all of the Billy Graham Presents movies (which I would highly recommend)... But they are so few and far between..
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 1:26 pm
I love the points you all are making that we measure things to the Bible, not to the world. We need to fiercely protect our girls' hearts and minds from the lies of this world. Fiercely protect, not merely tolerate or mildly discuss.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 1:30 pm
Christian parents have the responsibility to not only teach their children about the virtues that please God, but also about the spiritual forces that we are up against (Ephesians 6:12). When a child gets to a point where he or she has a personal relationship with God, and is able to fully discern between what is good and bad according to God's standards, reading Twlight books or watching the movies can serve as not only entertainment, but can empower parents to raise up wise Christian thinkers.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 1:35 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 1:36 pm
I am not sure there is a clear cut Biblical answer here. That Christian women are so deeply divided makes me believe that even more. Because the women here, by virtue of just being here, are not your average fly-by-night, worldly Christians. Women here are seeking, and living at high levels in their walk with God.
Certainly if it is something your family sees a hard line on, I encourage you to hold fast.
Let me explain my sensitivity to this topic. I have recently come out of a severe depression brought on, not by Twilight, but by other Christians.
I was called to question the homeschool curriculum I was using - did it have colored pictures or text in it? That can teach our children to value pleasure and not learn for the sake of learning, I was told.
Did my children participate in sports? I was taught that all sports encourage evil in our children's lives and should be avoided at all costs. It is better to talk a walk as a family, but not for pleasure, but only for exercise.
As liberal as some Christians are there are those who are so conservative you cannot even breath. For a woman who has struggled with that, I am glad to have the ability back to be discerning in my own life.
As Christians we must tread carefully in burdening fellow Christians with "laws" that do not exist. I did not get that feeling from the blog itself, but did from some of the comments. As ridiculous as it might sound to someone to say "you can't use textbooks with color in them" it sounds to others to say "you cannot read Twilight."
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 1:54 pm
Obviously you have not read or reviewed with open eyes because the whole point of Edward is that he is the LEAST bad, the MOST good of all those around him. The whole point of him is that he is from 1917 and has 1917 principles and morals and finds the looseness of the generation he is living in appalling.
I didn't read beyond that point because it showed your ignorance thus your inability to provide worthy reading material.
Oh and FYI - I'm not a crazed fanatic, I'm married, and my husband is great, there is nothing better than a good story and these books ARE a good story.
I hope you're able to review other things in the future with more correct approaches.
I'm LOL-ING....
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 2:00 pm
www.youdidn'treadmuchbeforecommenting.com
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 2:10 pm
Telling a teen they cant go watch a movie or read a book is like telling a child they cant have candy. It just makes them want it all the more, OR they will sneak around to do it. I had rather my teen read and see the movie then discuss it.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 2:13 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Do you look at yourself as being 'very critical' of Mary? It's a sci-fi book, a fad, and a movie. Pick to ignore all of it, or peek at some so you can relate to a teen or teens but really, why waste such a huge chunk of time to 'get the inside feel'? Doesn't scripture point to having only a light understanding of evil?
Feel free to correct all or any of what I said.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 2:59 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 3:10 pm
First of all, we are not bad Christians if we read or watch fantasy or fictional books or movies. It's called freedom of choice and we are all entitled to our own opinion. This is just a fad, and it will go away over time. There is only one movie left to make from the series, so until November 2011, we're just going to have to deal with it. It's not going away, it's a BIG money-maker. I think as mothers, we should read the books first--the movies leave out a lot that Stephenie Meyer includes in her books. Then watch the movies, and instead of banishing our girls from them, we should read/watch and discuss with them. My viewpoint is if you make a huge deal out of something being terrible, that's only going to lure them even more!
God knows who loves him. Let's not be judgmental against those who may or may not like Twilight. Your points about dark relationships are valid. I think most teenage girls just have a huge crush on Jacob or Edward based on the actors that portray them, and they are not going to out looking for a bad boy because of these movies, if they have been taught the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. This is just fantasy and it's no worse than other cult classic movies. My daughter is only 3, so obviously she hasn't the slightest idea of what this is all about, but if she asks about it one day, I will share the books and movies WITH her. I want her to be open-minded, but educated as well and not quick to judge!
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 3:12 pm
I agree with the other comments, this book is FICTION.
If your daughter is the type of person who would read a book and think it is a model to lie her own life by, then, sadly, you have probably failed her as a mother.
Enjoy your silly bubble, and the fact that your daughter is being sheltered from the real world. And no, being sheltered isn't a good thing. Unless- you plan to keep her sheltered for all eternity & never let her leave your home. Then by all means, good for you!
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 3:18 pm
Anyway, I'm glad this article did not focus too much on the vampire thing... but that it went straight to issues of the heart. I've always thought that the vampires in the movie are what's least to worry about. It's the obsessive, destructive, human centered relationship between Edward in Bella. Nothing God - centered or God - glorifying in that. When you are saturated with the Word, Twilight's hardly satisfying.
In the love of Jesus (which is better than life - books and movies included),
Sarah
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 3:34 pm
I have no problem with the books and have read all four. The last one is a bit weird, and I probably wouldn't let my young teen read it, but I'm not a huge lover of fantasy novels. My problem is with the REACTION of girls and women. If teen girls are becoming obsessed with these books, that is a personal heart problem. Not a problem of the book (I do not consider the books immoral or blasphemous). With parental guidance, there are so many themes and subjects in these books that could be used as great conversations with a teen who loves the fantasy genre and is interested in these books.
Last thoughts. Do you let your teens read Romeo and Juliet (lying to parents, secret marriage, teen suicide)? What about Wuthering Heights (transcendence/mysticism, cruelty and torment of others, strong passion and hatred)? Or "To Kill a Mockingbird (rape, racial issues, extreme racism)? These books are classic literature, reading requirements in highschools around the world, and generally suggested in homeschool curriculum.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 3:36 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 3:38 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 3:44 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 3:45 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 3:54 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 4:00 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 4:34 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 4:39 pm
This phenomenon is nothing but satan's crafty, sneaky tactic to deceive those that are wrapped up in it! And sadly, it's working... even on my Christian friends!
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 4:46 pm
Regardless of their offense I think you've hit it right on the head. Our choice about whether or not we read or watch these kinds of movies should always be rooted in the word. Do they fill our minds with things that are in contradiction to God's word? If so then we ought not be filling our mind with it! I don't have to try cocaine to know its bad for me and I don't have to read or watch these books to know their not going to spur me on in a positive way in my relationship with Christ.
My husband and I have made a practice of using Phil. 4:8 as a general guide for considering movies and books with our children. We've found that it works pretty well.
Php 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
Blessings to you Mary!!
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 4:55 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 4:59 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 5:00 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 5:47 pm
i think it's about time you stop writing controversial articles about fictional characters.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 5:55 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 6:36 pm
I have forwarded it to women who participate in our programming for single moms and chldren, our staff and my FB friends.
Thank you for caring enough to talk about the "hot issues" that effect us as women and our children.
Most of all thanks for grounding all your comments on God's Word.
God bless,
Judy Layton
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 6:55 pm
You can talk about the things that are good too -like being valued for WHO you are and not being used for sexual purposes. Emulating the things that have some parents thinking that this is a healthy thing for their girls to fill their mind and spirits with!
http://www.walkaschildren.blogspot.com/
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 6:55 pm
Secondly, I think it's a complicated discussion because there's a lot happening on a lot of levels (which is usually the case with metaphoric stories). There's things I think you're right about, things I think you're wrong about and places where you're simply uninformed (from not reading the books which you clearly admit and I give you credit for).
I'm a proponent of traditional roles for men and women but Bella is not gentle, soft and vulnerable. She is passive and far too inclined to let overbearing men treat her like she's so fragile and weak that left to her own devices she'd die. She's really not a good example to girls.
Granted, I happen to think strong women in stories are empowering and good for girls provided their allowed to maintain their femininity. The difference would be Sarah Connor as played by Linda Hamilton in the films and Sarah Connor as played by Lena Heady in the tv show. One is a bad ass warrior acting like a man and the other is a mother: strong and fierce and protective but still vulnerable and flawed. Another good example of a strong woman in stories would be Tammy Taylor from Friday Night Lights.
Being the princess doesn't equate to being weak and I don't think it's good for teenage girls to believe that either.
I do agree with your description of what girls want, "someone who will pursue her, protect her, and cherish her beauty and vulnerability. She yearns for a man to love her at a deep personal and emotional level—and not just a physical, sexual one. ... the man of her dreams is still a strong, handsome prince charming who fights for her, and rescues her. He loves her, commits to her, and selflessly sets aside personal interest for the sake of her best interest." That's a characteristic that makes vampires so appealing and why they are currently so popular in our culture. Vampires are completely selfless lovers, because if they indulge their desire (for her blood) he loses her.
For the remainder of your argument, I find it awkward. Your premise is what you would tell Bella if she were real and your daughter. But she's not. The fantasy world of the story precludes certain things that absolutely make sense in real life. I think if you're going to have a conversation like this you have to judge the story on it's own rules because fantasy stories create their own small universe with their own rules and scale of cultural normality. The conversation then becomes deciding if those rules match yours.
This is why I think it's so important to teach girls the difference between reality and fantasy; the importance of having a practiced critical mind for everything they take in including books and movies and music and tv shows.
For instance, in real life I agree with everything you said about a teenage girl having to keep secrets and of having an us vs. them mentality.
In the book, however....
2. he's a vampire. Perfectly reasonable shared secret. Also, his entire family knows so it's not really a secret so much as a private club that rational adults are a part of.
3. I think you need to define who is who "them" is in your us vs. them point better. It isn't us vs. Bella's father - because he knows about their relationship and disapproves as much as fathers disapprove of their daughters dating, but not in a way that indicates he thinks it's an unhealthy relationship. Possibly us vs humans who don't know he's a vampire. which kind of makes sense and doesn't seem wrong. Maybe us vs. werewolves which totally makes sense in the context of the story but then that division is unified.
4. Again, in real life I agree with your point of isolation and seclusion. In the story I think you're misinterpreting their relationship. There is some isolation but there's also a lot of it that is formed in the context of his family and later with her father also.
I think these all make for points that would be good to discuss with a teenage girl to train her critical thinking skills and help her recognize healthy and unhealthy relationships on her own.
5. The problem with this point is you assume he's bad. That by virtue of being an vampire he is inherently soulless and evil. Laying aside the point that everyone reinvents the vampire mythology and some of them have had souls, Edward is clearly portrayed as the hero. Judging the story by its own rules, your declaration that Edward is darkness is false. Evil by the story's rules is James and Victoria and even the Volturi; is about choice and intention and not vampire or human. I agree with your point that you can't mix light and dark in spiritual issues of real life. I think a more astute point of view on this would be to ask if vampires are inherently evil and if so, then is this the sort of story anyone should be exposed to?
p.s. Edward doesn't engage in occult practices. Not sure where you got that.
6. Here, again, we agree. Bella is a world of needy, written as a passive female character who is told she could hurt herself doing laundry and should not be left alone (in the books).
8. Bella totally confides in her father about the nature of her relationship with Edward. She doesn't tell him Edward is a vampire, but he's well aware that they're dating and spending a lot of time together and with his family and there is a certain amount of intimacy between them.
Finally, though really going back to my earlier point, all the things you said about "in the real world" are true. But I still disagree that you can make an apples to apples comparison of a fantasy story and the real world. The question, I think, is does the world created by this fantasy world align with what I believe to be right and true in this world.
I do agree with you that it shouldn't be dismissed easily as a movie, because the stories we expose ourselves to create our reality - our ideas of love and romance and also success and justice and power.
Which is why we should ask these questions and have these conversations and explore what we believe about love and romance, what our society and stories are telling us is true.
For the record, I think from a literature standpoint the books are very poorly written. The first film was very poorly produced. The second film was much better. But obviously these stories have gripped our culture and I think that's interesting to explore.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 7:14 pm
I just started reading your Blog, (if that's what this is). I thank you for the info, because there's lots of people like me that haven't seen or read the books, so this is very helpful.
I'm not interested in seeing the movie or reading the books, so this helps me to know what people are so excited about.
Thank you again for all your work~to keep us informed~saves me time.
A grateful Christian woman.
Maria
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 7:34 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 7:54 pm
Let's be honest- Media DOES affect the way we think, or companies are spending billions of dollars on advertising for nothing. We are being naive if we think that the underlying messages and philosophies contained in books, tv shows, and movies do not influence us or our children.
Why don't people have a problem with a guy over a hundred falling in love with a 17 year old girl? In my world, that's called a pedophile. Ditto any guy who falls in love with a two year old or an infant (as when the werewolves 'imprint'). Would Bella be swooning over Edward if vampires did age and he LOOKED like he was 109? So what's the difference?
Bella gets The Most Unlikable Character in Fiction Award. She lies to every single person in her life- her father, mother, friends, and even to Edward. She's whiny and ungrateful. Even when she gets everything she wants, she still goes on and on (and on and on) about how horrible her life is.
The Cullens are no better. They all stand around talking and looking beautiful while the Volturi eat the tourists and the citizens of Seattle are just a big vampire buffet. Their 'powers' apparently don't work very well, and Edward is ineffective and mentally unbalanced- what parent would allow her daughter to date a guy who vandalizes her vehicle so she can't go see her friends?
I also want to know why the school Bella attends doesn't have a truancy policy.
Bella and Edward don't have premarital sex, but they engage in foreplay quite often, lying in bed, kissing passionately and caressing. Anyone want their son or daughter thinking that this is an example of purity?
I understand doing some reading/movie watching for informational or critical purposes (because I did read the books in order to be able to discuss them) but if we are truly trying to apply Phil 4:8 to our lives, then we need to consider WHY we think such drivel is entertaining or somehow beneficial.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 8:18 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 9:22 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 10:44 pm
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 11:17 pm
Also - kids will be exposed to worldly things. There is no such thing as a bubble. The argument that if we shield our children from harmful things or temptation then they won't be able to function in the real world is not valid. 1, we are commanded to watch over the weak, and who are weaker than our children or hormonal teens? and 2, where do you find in Scripture when parents are encouraged to put their children in the face of sin and then talk about it?
I could take my daughters to a strip club and then tell them why this is sinful, or I could just teach them about the dangers of that lifestyle without venturing into a strip club. Yes, that is an extreme example, but without a hint of sarcasm, I ask this: where do you draw the line?
It all boils down to, do you have a peace from God to watch this movie (or any movie), or read these books? If so, who are we to argue with God's guidance in your life? If not, well, you know what you should do. And if you haven't asked God, maybe you should. That would put away all this heated debate.
on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 11:26 pm
Thank you Mary..
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 12:00 am
Where are the scriptures that support Christians supporting and promoting darkness? It's time out for going on what we "think" or "feel." All of the rationalizations that I've read in these comments confirms that we are truly in the last days. There is mass deception in the body of Christ right now about a lot of things and Christians justifying ANYTHING that represents darkness (ie Twilight) is truly a sign of the times.
I pray that parents will one day want to discuss the Word of God with their children more than they want to "discuss Twilight" so that their children will be able to say no to anything that grieves the Holy Spirit (ie Twilight)
Would Jesus be as giddy about Twilight as some of our Christian parents? PLEASE, WAKE UP!!!
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 12:15 am
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 12:25 am
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 12:33 am
It is amazing how many posts above are condemning one side or the other. Many of the comments remind me of people who never read the Harry Potter series but despise it anyway.
As someone who has read the books within the last year, but hasn't seen all the movies, I must say that it sounds like the movies take most of the negative parts of the books, but very few of the positive ones. I saw the first movie, and didn't see anything wrong with it (much less wrong with it than many other popular chick flicks), other than what I considered to be silly awkward stares between Edward and Bella. It was mildly interesting so I then read the books to see what all the hype was about.
The books were good. They had an interesting storyline, and I loved that they waited until marriage for the sex, and that Bella fought for her unborn baby, even though her life was in serious danger and nearly everyone pressured her to murder the baby. The obsessiveness was annoying, and not something I would want my teenage daughter to read. However, for someone past adolescence, who knows what real love is and isn't, I don't think we as a community should condemn her for reading and enjoying the books. I view the whole situation as similar to alcohol or rap music (or most other things, really). If someone has a weakness for alcohol, then we shouldn't judge them for avoiding it (in fact, we should encourage them) and they shouldn't condemn those who can drink. I, for example, cannot listen to rap. Hearing it brings back many teenage memories and fills me with the depressive despair that marked those years. However, my husband listens to Flame and Tripp Lee (Reformed rappers) and has no problem with it. I view the Twilight series in the same way.
If reading it causes you to sin, then don't read it. The sin could be becoming addicted or being dissatisfied with your husband or becoming obsessed about some aspect of it, etc etc. When my husband and I are in a down-time in our marriage, I avoid chick flicks or books, because I know it will cause me to become dissatisfied with the man God gave me. But when we are close, I don't have a problem with watching Pride and Prejudice or Anne of Green Gables (my two favorites!) because it doesn't cause me to sin.
The major problem I have with Twilight (particularly with the movies) is that men are objectified and appear shirtless so frequently in the second, third, and fourth installments. Maybe I'm just more visual than most women, but I will not see those movies for that reason. Just as my husband doesn't see movies with scantily-clad women.
Things that are a stumbling block for some are not for others. I believe that choice of movies falls under that category.
However, I also believe that children should be protected, and that parents need to shelter them. As a favorite pastor put it once, why would you send your child to do battle when she hasn't even figured out what being a Christian is? Maybe even before they are saved? I wouldn't send my young child over to Afghanistan to do battle; the battle for her soul is even more deadly. We are to protect our children, not throw them into the war before they are ready. So, you mothers who won't expose your children to Twilight, good for you! I wouldn't either.
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 1:26 am
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 1:27 am
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 1:51 am
I'm a long time Twilight-hater (though that word is strong, it convey's my point) and I'm really glad you made this post. It's taken a lot of my issues and put them firmly in a Christian perspective. As a young adult, I really encourage mothers to read this book with their daughters and use it as a learning opportunity. All their friends are reading it/watching it and they're exposed to these kind of issues daily. Taking control of the messages they're getting from society at large and discussing them takes away the power those messages hold.
I don't believe shielding girls from these issues is a good idea (though it's really up to the mother to decide that) as they will continue to crop up in different ways.
In Christ,
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 4:49 am
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 6:57 am
You don't have to be a Christian to understand the problems- http://community.sparknotes.com/index.php/2009/07/16/blogging-twilight-index-page
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 7:39 am
For a woman who has read Twilight to be called a "harlot" and a "Christian in quotation marks to imply that she may not really be one" is horrible. It only confirms to us that this ministry is not for us.
How many women stumbled here from a link on someone's else post, only to find they were already condemned so why even bother?
It would seem we are not the kind of Christians who love God enough, therefor not really welcome here. It's a shame too, because this ministry has so much to offer. (I refer here to the comments, not the article itself. But people read the comments last, and that is the impression they will leave with.)
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 8:35 am
Jennifer - thank you for quoting Phil. 4:8... That pretty much says it all!! Whatever is good and noble about blood-sucking creatures? The Bible says, "the life is in the blood" so we must remember that the blood of a human being is how God gives life. This is why eating meat with blood was forbidden in the Old Testament and reinforced in the New Testament... Acts 15:29: "You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."
Great job Mary! Thank you for giving us a clear Christian perspective to reference.
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 10:27 am
Leviticus 17:14
because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, "You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off."
Deuteronomy 12:23
But be sure you do not eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the meat.
Is it not apparent that the media obsession with vampires (with SO MANY new tv shows and movies coming out) is clearly evil glorified? Eating that which gives life, as God has given it, is a craving and desire for death. Should this be considererd "good" in any way, shape, or form?
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 10:47 am
We teach our children to discern by filling them with Truth. Then when something approaches that is NOT truth or pure or lovely or right, they will then be able to discern that it is not of God.
I have never done drugs. But that does not preclude me from being able to teach my children about the dangers of doing drugs. I did on the other hand developed a "fondness" for vampires as child (prior to being saved) and now, even decades later, I have to fight the temptation of attraction and sympathy toward all things vampire.
When we allow our children to sample sin, they develop a taste for it (no pun intended) and then they must struggle against their flesh with this sin. Why would we want to do that to them? Our role as parents is to stand in the gap and shield our children so that we can train them in the way they should go and to help prepare their battle armor. They are not ready to go to the front lines of battle until they are able to discern.
My own teenage daughter, who is an avid book reader, laments over the lack of appropriate books. Just yesterday, she was offended that the teen section at B & N contained mostly vampire stories and romance. Why? Not because we read them together and discussed them, but because I seek to fill her with truth so when we do come across something we talk about whether it is according to God's standard of right or wrong.
Please, mamas, fight the good fight and don't fall for the straw-man argument that your children need to be exposed to evil in order to recognize and fight it.
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 10:58 am
Donna (and all with the "let's show them what not to do" viewpoint: Teaching discernment does not involve endangerment. I never had to teach my children to lie--they unfortunately were born with the proclivity. We call them juveniles because they are unable to assume adult responsibility. Why would you assume they could effectively discern why "Twilight" is good or bad without the tools and (hopefully) restraint of adulthood--particularly with the raging hormones and self-centered nature of youth. I don't put my eight year old behind the wheel on the highway to show him how bad car wrecks can be.
Rebecca: You seem to be missing the point of the entire article. I believe it was written from the viewpoint of a mother guiding her daughter. Unless you are the writer's daughter, I wonder why you feel so personally abused. Would you feel equally set upon if the article was about keeping your children away from narcotics? You seem very concerned that someone will make a rule for you that you do not like. Rules (Precepts) are for babes in Christ--the mature Christian must learn to follow and apply the Principles of the Word of God. Example--when I John 1 tells us Christ has no darkness at all, that is not a rule per se, but should lead the Christian to the principle; i.e. stay away from spiritual darkness.
Sarah: If your suppositions regarding Edward's respect for Bella were true, then they would not be hiding from Bella's father. He would be man enough to involve her parents. To me the male leads in the movie posters are made to appear quite effeminate.
Lacie: I do not believe the article discusses what "every Christian" is against. Instead the post formulates some specific problems faced by the mothers of teen girls in dealing with this hype. The Bible tells us to think on excellent things, to pray always, and have songs and hymns and spiritual songs on our lips. How do these movies qualify? Now all must accept that God permits Christians to watch this movie--I've heard of no deaths by lightning strikes at the theaters. The question is does God WANT you to watch these movies. Just because some good things are mentioned doesn't make it good--that's a slippery slope.
Louise: Judgmental is applying one's own opinion--the question is not what *I* think about Twilight, but what God thinks about it. We are commanded to use Godly Judgment--we may fully apply what God has already judged.
Y: In regards to sheltering and living in bubbles, you are using a non-sequitur. You seem to be arguing for life without any sort of boundaries. Do you let two-year-olds play in the street? Do you keep dangerous chemicals in the nursery? Children are called such for a reason--they are not adults. Just because a teen boy will one day be legally able to purchase Playboy magazine it does NOT follow that his parents should take out a subscription.
GladtobeFree: Would you offer the same advice to one who wants to try cocaine for the first time? Would you say, "If you become addicted, it would be wise to steer clear of it." I infer that if Bella and her father had a proper relationship, she would not go seeking male affection elsewhere. As a father, I would be ashamed of myself if my daughter was "reading the books and looking for a guy like Edward".
Stephanie: "Legalism" is the belief that Salvation may be won through "law-keeping". I see no evidence of that in any of these posts. If in fact you mean that some of the posters have certain Standards with which you do not agree, please say so. However, please note that everyone has standards--most would agree that wearing a bikini to a funeral would be improper. Regarding the works of literature mentioned: You are aware, I hope, that _Romeo_and_Juliette is a tragedy, meaning that they did NOT get away with their actions and, in fact, died because of them? Nor is Shakespeare generally regarded as "aimed" at the YA reading crowd. In _To_Kill_a_Mockingbird_, the "relationship" between Tom Robinson and Mayella Ewell are hardly made enticing to the teen girl.
To those defending the series: I can quote many Bible verses that deal with, at least in principle, keeping myself and my children away from darkness. Where may I turn to find a verse instructing me that a movie about teen angst and vampires is edifying? Don't give me "I think" and "I feel". You would not listen to a Doctor who said "I FEEL you should take this pill."
But that's just the problem. I understand that a Christian is a triune being - Body, Soul, and Spirit. My flesh will only be "saved" at a future date (Glorification). My Spirit was saved at a point in the past (Justification). But my Soul, the seat of reason and heart, is being saved right now in Sanctification. My mind, in other words, is a battlefield between the old man the flesh commanded and the new man who is to walk in the Spirit. If I feed the flesh, it will win. If I feed the spirit, it will win.
So, would someone PLEASE tell me how viewing ANY teen angst movie (vampire or no) helps my daughter win this battle? How does that help her crucify the flesh or enhance her capacity for self-control? Find me chapter and verse and then we'll have something to talk about.
And in full disclosure, I'm not against movies in essence--as long as I have my Clearplay. And I usually do not comment in such matters and am sure I will disabuse myself of whatever notion prompted me to do so roughly three seconds after I hit submit.
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 11:35 am
Bella was not raised in a christian family nor claims Jesus as her Lord and savior.
And clearly this writer did not read the books because if she did then she would not have written a whole paragraph about suicide b/c Bella was cliff diving b/c everytime she had adrenaline she saw Edward. That was not a suicide attempt.
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 11:35 am
But these comments are RIDICULOUS! Way to try to make people feel bad if they read it, or feel like they are too strict if they didn't.
Where's the truth in love???????
This is my first and last visit to this site.
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 12:07 pm
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 12:12 pm
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 12:27 pm
I feel like there is too much distention over small things. We're missing a much bigger point. We are to be living according to the standard that has been given to us-God's standard. He loves us and doesn't want us wandering aimlessly through life, so we have His Word. We are supposed to look at life through the filter of Scripture. Which is what Mary is doing in her article. Take Twilight out of it, apply it to the other things that we are being exposed to-books, movies, television, music. See the bigger picture here.
We are to glorify Him in ALL things, whether it be watching a movie, reading a book, eating supper, washing our cars, or leaving comments on a blog. We are to bring all glory and honor to Him.
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen
-Jude 24-25
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 1:27 pm
I'd recommend listening.
http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/cinemagogue/twilight
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 1:52 pm
Christians have an important opportunity to entertain ideas (study, investigate) with a critical eye and a passion for God's truth from his Word. In my opinion, much of the "Christian Romance" genre and other so called historical romances marketed to women are poor literature and insist on presenting romance as the solution to all problems. One does not have to be a believer to simply present truth, or tell stories honestly. But such intellectual honesty is becoming more and more rare, and the absence of it effects readers. So, is there any wonder that Christian women would be so conflicted about the suitability of "Twilight", much less its actual premise? The premise is not so much of a problem as its own failure to achieve it!
I would recommend skimming the first book, for the mental exercise of critiquing the writing and ideas. For those who enjoy the writing and prefer to read it, you may take great offense at my comments. For those who have better things to do and whose daughters are else-wise occupied, you have my utmost respect!
My take on the premise of Twilight: The unique and self effacing Bella falls in love with uncommonly brave, good, and misunderstood Edward, who is smitten by her and happens to be a vampire. It is important to understand that the vampire thing is a mere incidental to the fans. It gives the excuse for a mysterious character and his background, family, and all the other baggage that fuels the plot. I think the author, a Mormon, was trying to develop Edward as a representative character for her own frequently misunderstood religious background. Mormons = hated, feared, misunderstood.
Mormons claim to have Christian values, which may be true, in theory, but the Mormon religion is not a Christian denomination and contradicts our Scriptures. Edward's star attraction is that he is old fashioned and protective toward Bella, though the rest of the world sees him as a mysterious threat. I can't help but wonder if the author was trying to rehabilitate her own faith in the eyes of the world.
My 8th grade daughter asked me repeatedly about reading Twilight, I said it looked questionable (just the cover itself!), her friends kept giving her their copies, I kept telling her not until I read it, and I eventually said "yes" on several conditions, which she agreed to, as follows:
1. Thank you for asking permission and not sneaking to read the book!
2. You must read 2 negative reviews (which I found) about the book and discuss it with me before beginning to read it.
3. "Liking" the characters should not interfere with your ability to critique the book and its premise, the actions of characters, and its literary value.
4. Your willingness to engage in intelligent discussion about the above issues will demonstrate maturity on your part. Defensiveness will be a sign that you are too easily swayed.
Before offering what you could call positives of the book, let me be frank about the movie's distinctives. The movies contain some of the worst acting in history, largely because of the banal dialogue. One would expect any movie about a family of vampires and their neighbors, the wherewolfs (sp?), to be visually bleak, hence the sun rarely shines and the characters are either anemic or kind of woodsy!
Oh, yeah, the book's positives. Um...here it goes.
1. Edward's appeal is that he is old fashioned and protective toward Bella. Interestingly, the author had to create a good guy by making him a young looking, 90 year old vampire. Presumably that was the only way she could create a desirable guy who would have good values. The author's premise is that Edward is a good guy who is misunderstood by
others. He sees something different in Bella, though I don't know what! But something every girl wants.
2. Though it sends some mixed messages, the author is trying to be pro-abstinence. Christians can talk about how the world's efforts in this regard fall short of biblical ideals.
3. From a literary perspective, the novel is a mess. The main character is a kind of "Peggy Sue"; a character drawn on the author's desire to complete or relive her own life. Not something to respect, but useful in teaching kids the differences between good literature and bad literature. I list it as a positive only because it can serve as a teaching tool to show students that authors can sometimes be self serving.
4. I have been able to have intelligent discussions with my daughters and their friends about the story line and the issues it raises. I know that they have a less enchanted view of the series as a result.
If you don't become informed, skim the book, or talk to those who have, you can still "lay down the law", but your daughter won't take instructions from your criticisms. And many girls are reading it in secret and think they have discovered a treasure trove.
The message of the book (perhaps unintended) is that most men are low-lifes, starting in high school, and even a father couldn't love an ordinary girl as much as a vampire.
Here are my negatives:
1. Edward fails to be the good prototype which I believe the author intended. All of the "chaste" sneaking into bedrooms, evading parents, not to mention hanging out in the woods at twilight and having sensual discussions about the need for abstinence, falls short of Christian standards of purity.
2. The character of Bella is kind of...insipid. Point this out to your daughters and they might agree, which will hopefully discount her as any kind of heroine. Make sure you teach them this word, INSIPID, as it applies to many heroines of romance novels and television. There is nothing unique about Bella's self absorption and obsession with forbidden fruit!
3. Twilight's attempted theme of abstinence until marriage is better than much of what secular society usually presents in the media, but it falls way short of the biblical concept of sexual purity. We need to make sure our young people understand that we are not merely concerned with keeping virginity in tact or preventing unwanted pregnancies!
By reading this book with discernment and analyzing its many limitations, moms can offer help to teen girls and learn something as well. For one, I hope what I have learned will sabotage any misleading effects the book may have on young women. Twilight also tells us something surprising about our teen pop culture. Its success says to me: Girls are tired of the status quo, but apart from Christ, cannot do anything to overcome what their mothers have given them - sentimental rubbish!
The debate should not be questioning whether or not to read something, but whether or not to be discerning in our reading and tastes.
Every blessing in Christ,
Barbara Gardner
Holy Women of the Past/Calvary Press
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 3:06 pm
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 3:28 pm
I also want to point out, that in this particular series, seeing God's role is difficult. However, I don't believe this is a story of God's direct role in an individuals life. Rather after reading the books I have gained another perception.
Edward is evil, born evil as a human, and by circumstance made a son of darkness by worldly interference. However, even though Edward knows that above all else he IS evil, he seeks to make himself right. He is terrified of his damnation and above all else wishes there was a way in which he could be "forgiven" and absolved from the pits of hell. Can't we relate to that? After all we were born evil, NOTHING WE can do will save us, our actions will NEVER be good enough to make it to heaven. Jesus Christ was our absolution, and without him, we would all be "Edward Cullens". However, think about those people out there who are not saved and wish above all else that something would absolve them from the chains of guilt, anger, desperation, and despair that they feel. I think that in being able to relate to Edward there is an opening to show these people, that unlike Edward, there is a Savior, and that if they give their lives to Jesus Christ, they can be absolved and reach salvation.
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 4:25 pm
I love everything you just said, especially about Edward. Your thought process is exactly what I mean by reading with discernment. Christians should seize the opportunity to relate everything we read to the Gospel.
Barb Gardner
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 4:33 pm
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 4:33 pm
I have to disagree. I am 15 years old and have been lovingly protected from the horrible things of this world. You may call it sheltered but I enjoy my parents taking such good care of me. I have a cousin who was saturated in the world and now has many regrets that I was spared from. I'm sorry if this is blunt but I found this article to be EXTREMELY helpful and not a silly bubble!
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 4:35 pm
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 4:35 pm
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 5:00 pm
“With humility of mind let each of your regard one another as more important than himself…have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus (Phil. 2:5).”
We’ve become a bit concerned today at the “tone” that is developing in some of the posts. We thought it wise to reconsider some of Kimberly Wagner’s thoughts from Respect in the “ Blogosphere” as we interact on this topic.
One of the benefits of the True Woman blog has been the community that has developed through the opportunity to send encouraging comments. We are blessed by hearing how God is at work in your lives. We love watching women on this blog surround a hurting sister and pray for her. We’ve even had the privilege of watching women respond to the gospel and seeing His transformation occur in their lives!
But, at times we’ve been grieved over the tone of comments we’ve received. One of the HUGE negatives to this form of discussion is the inability to exchange smiles, to hear gracious tones of response, to see sincere kindness expressed while verbalizing differences. As we read differing comments it helps to consider this limitation.
One of the most disappointing and surprising things we’ve discovered in cyberspace is the seeming ease and frequency with which individuals throw out a barrage of personal criticisms to total strangers.
We’ve found Ephesians 4:29-32 an invaluable guide for me when conversing (whether verbally or in writing):
“Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God . . .”
It is important to stand for biblical truth, but we must be careful to convey truth with the gracious and winsome spirit of humility of a redeemed sinner. Thank you, Ladies, for honoring the Lord as you do this.
True Woman Staff
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 5:12 pm
for me like Jesus, and I hope if there is a young girl or woman who is contemplating a "Twilight" re-lationship they will turn from it and cling to Jesus the only lover of their soul.
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 5:32 pm
Personally, i have found that one thing STRONGLY rings clear in everything: to those who say you "don't teach people to recognize counterfeits by counterfeiting but by studying the real stuff, i can't say i disagree, but until you can do it in a way that isn't shoving it down people's throats, you will never get a teen to listen. Even if it's only the first word that is forceful, a teen will shut you out immediately, and from my experience, despite the fact that you mean well, teens often wind up more confused because you give them and answer with no reason behind the answer.
Secondly, to those who say that we should allow them to see it and discuss what is wrong: I extend the same caution on forcefulness, IT WILL NOT WORK. In fact, it often causes the opposite effect. Over all, i have found this is the method that works the best because the teen has a chance to express their opinion and instead of being harshly rebuked, it is usually gently, but firmly, counteracted with truth.
But to be honest with all of you, i really do have to say this: combining the two methods will more than likely result in the best outcome. Not allowing it at all will cause the child/teen to become more curious, and eventually they will wind up reading it, with or without your permission, no matter how good they are otherwise. On the other hand, an ineffective discussion will also fail to convey the issues you seek to show the teen.
In conclusion, i would also like to say one more thing, remember that sometimes, a kid just wants to be a kid, and they take nothing more away from a movie or book than "Oh, that was really well written/made!" Yes, it is important to study truth, but without the discussion, a teen will become rebellious. It has happened century after century, and it won't change now.
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 7:58 pm
I apologize if I have said anything that has been taken as disrespectful or not been very encouraging. I will humbly bow out of this site.
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 8:16 pm
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 8:18 pm
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 10:00 pm
I did notice something - the posters who think it is a bad idea for girls/teens to read/watch Twilight didn't say someone was going to hell for having a differing opinion, did they? I also don't remember anyone saying someone isn't truly saved if they have read these books. So please, I say this with a gentle smile :), don't overreact or put words in our mouths. (and if someone actually DID say that, forgive me for missing it)
To me, the biggest issue is not about Twilight but about the idea that we as parents should expose our children to dark things so we can discuss the Truth. I think this is very dangerous, and we should all carefully comb the Scriptures for guidance in this methodology.
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 10:36 pm
In light of all this lively discussion, I thought I would recommend a wonderful novel by Australian author Nevil Shute, A Town Like Alice. It was made into a PBS movie, only one, but it's about 6 hours long, so even better than 3 sequels! And one that all could love. Then we could scold people for not reading it :)
"A Town Like Alice" is about a young, pretty, and very sensible woman, Jean, who survives a death march at the hands of the Japanese in Malaysia during WWII. It tells of her leadership skills with the other women prisoners, her grief for the man who is condemned to death for helping them, and an inheritance she receives after the war. What I love about the book is that the author has a great vision for womanhood and manhood as expressed in his characters.
Not only am I kind of trying to change the subject, but this book is my favorite novel and I love the heroine because she has a vision to help her man pursue his dreams.
It was published in the 1960's and just might be in your local library.
Please read this book and take it out on me if you have a bone to pick!
Your sister in Christ,
Barbara B. Gardner
Holy Women of the Past/ Calvary Press
on Thursday, July 1, 2010 at 11:00 pm
on Friday, July 2, 2010 at 12:04 am
on Friday, July 2, 2010 at 7:39 am
Do we want them to be happy and productive in this life with no thought to their soul? Do we want them to be accepted by the world or by Christ? At best we want them to be saved by the Lord AND live a life that glorifies His name. If they are not saved before they leave our home then our prayer should be that the world eat them alive until they cry out to the Lord for mercy. Our job is to raise our children to love and serve the Lord and carry out the great commission...not to blend in with the world. This movie, these books add nothing to their walk with the Lord. There is nothing you can learn from them that you cannot learn in scripture.
It really just comes down to this: the movie and books portray things that God speaks against. So you either set these things before your eyes and not care about what God says or you refrain in response to the gospel. Christ loved you and saved you and now you want to live a life pleasing and glorifying to Him. Any other reason for not watching/reading this material is purely moralistic/leagalistic. It is about your walk with the Lord not about right/wrong. Do we need to let our children enjoying the pleasure of sinful things so that we can then discuss how wrong they are in the eyes of God or do we do our best to keep them innocent to evil things as scripture says? Do these movies/books help you in your relationship with Christ or do they seduce you into the lust of the world?
on Friday, July 2, 2010 at 9:45 am
It is obvious in the books that neither mother, father nor Bella have anything to do with the church. So, imposing Christian values on them or condemning them for not demonstrating them seems silly. However, I think the books/movies provide excellent discussion points for Christian parents to begin to talk with their daughters about the disparity between Christian behavior and the behavior described in the Twilight books.
See the movie either with your daughter or, if that embarrasses her, with someone else or alone. Read the book. Whether you see the movie or not, read the books. The details are in the books. Then sit down and discuss it with your daughter/children. Be open and lead into the discussion with something positive. You don't have to download all your angst in one discussion. Try to meet your teenage daughter where she is - a teenager - then sensitively lead her beyond that. Christian maturity is a process and doesn't happen over night. Be open to listening to her point of view. Meet her at her level of maturity and lead from there. Don't lash out and get angry.
These books would also be a good discussion generator for young men. With all the various models of behavior for men these days, a little reinforcement of how women should be treated wouldn't be bad.
God is compassionate and loving while firmly grounded in Christianity. Follow that example.
on Friday, July 2, 2010 at 1:45 pm
on Friday, July 2, 2010 at 3:15 pm
The argument made against Edward being dark is laughable - she isn't supposed to be impressed that he can keep from seducing her and taking her as feed and pleasure? How can you not see how this mirrors umarried couple's struggles with the flesh - of fighting the natural and beautiful desire given to us so that we may wait for the wedding night? The only aspect you describe as DARK is his character's being is vampire which makes him a son of darkness automatically to you, but this is only true if you take it out of the context - when you look at all four stories you see the beautiful parallel that this has with reality in that the nature he struggles with is not unlike our own unfallen nature that we fight against with prayer and supplication.
Additionally, there is a theme of redemptiveness in this novel series is redemption, pure and simple. Yes, its a romance - but this romance teaches a BETTER way, it shows girls that there are boys who don't have just one thing on their mind as society tells us, and it shows the boys who read it that the ones the girls desire truly are those who fight and guard their honor as the two male leads are. Is it themed with vampires? yeah, but that is just the decoration to a beautiful story. If this had not been themed as such, it would not have come across to you as dark but lovely.
***
As other posters stated, if you cannot reconcile yourself to this novel series as permissible for older children because of the reasons the blogger stated, then the Little Mermaid is out the door for ALL of the reasons (mermaids are based off of mythological Sirens which lured men to their deaths, after all - and what is darker than that), as well as any Disney princess film as the daughters are repeatedly disobedient to their parents, disrespectful, taking candy apples from strangers, living with strange men, talking to the spirits of trees and ancestors, etc.
on Friday, July 2, 2010 at 6:06 pm
on Saturday, July 3, 2010 at 10:08 am
I personally thought Mary's comments were well balanced and logical. After making the mistake of allowing my two daughters to view the first film, which I was present, I came to many of these same conclusions. Unhealthy, unhealthy, unhealthy. Yes it is just fantasy, but why do we want or need to expose our daughters to the emotional pull that seems to grip them when they view these movies? How is that a benefit in our quest to raise Godly girls who rightly divide the truth from the lie?
Don't give me that malarkey about over protecting our daughters by denying them the 'truth' that is in the world. There are many more productive ways to showcase the darkness in this world in the hopes that they understand the balance. How about, why do we see the need to throw them to the sharks in the name of exposure and enlightenment? Think ladies. You have been given charge over these girls by God. Make wise choices with them. God will hold you accountable.
My last comment is that beyond the fantasy, there is an intense sexual attraction in the films, much more prevalent than in the books. The chemistry between the two main characters evoke sexual desires in these teen girls and stir those embers at an age that they needn't be stirred. They do not represent an attitude of purity in any way. What would be the benefit of promoting the opposite of purity in your daughter? How will that help her be the amazing Godly woman that she was designed to be? I just don't see it.
So step back ladies. Evaluate why you are so heated over this topic. Truly access if allowing them to see these films will be something that will bring your daughter either closer to her God or closer to her understanding of what a Godly, healthy relationship should be. The answer should be clear.
on Saturday, July 3, 2010 at 4:25 pm
As a mid-twenties, devout Christian male, I am glad that you have done your "homework", but must strongly disagree with your conclusion regarding Twilight. First let me stipulate that not being a parent myself, I have the highest respect for the immense pressure and responsibility that you have in raising children and that you must do so according to the dictates of your conscience. With that being said, let me respond to your concerns and hopefully shed some light as to why I am such a strong supporter of the Twilight series.
Let me begin by clearing up a few broad issues. First, Edward is a vampire. This creates a slightly different circumstance than a real life scenario. The secrecy of his existence as a vampire is essential for his continued existence. This is tantamount to a person in the witness protection creating and living a whole new identity in order to protect himself.
Second, there is no clear consensus on whether the vampires in Twilight have a soul or not. Carlisle believes they do, Edward believes they don't. So how are we to judge? Scripture says that by their fruits we shall know them. All of the Cullen family have chosen a life that does not consume human blood thereby taking human life. This shows at the very least an empathy for their fellow humans and a respect for human life and at the most a conscious that does not condone taking another human life. Edward is described in the books as taking a few years away from the family to pursue "vigilante" work, killing criminals. But again, his conscious does not permit him to do this for very long. He realizes that killing/drinking human blood makes him a monster and he clearly states in the books that he does not want to be a monster. With the carryover of this conscious and respect/empathy for human life, this makes for a strong case that the vampires in Twilight do indeed have a soul.
Now to address your concerns specifically.
1. Bad Boy Attraction/Forbidden Fruit. Yes, Edward has a dark side. Every human being has a dark side, it is called our sinful nature. All of us has the capability to lie, steal, cheat, and even kill depending on the choices we make. But again, may I point out that we are not just talking about Edward as a vampire, but also Edward as a rational being who makes choices. As I have already pointed out, he doesn't want to be a monster. If you follow his actions and choices through out the book, aside from being a little over-protective, he is the model boyfriend, i.e. respectful, caring, and chaste. As far as the "forbidden fruit", I have already addressed that Edward being a "bad boy" vampire is similar to a normal human being a "bad boy" sinner. As such, the "forbidden fruit" of a relationship with Edward is not a moral dilemma of right or wrong, but one of social acceptability. Edward is the outcast in his social circle. The other students don't know/understand him so they are fearful of him. This makes being in a relationship with him the "forbidden fruit". This would be similar to how it used to be taboo for people of differing races to marry or how in modern times it is still considered strange or unusual for people of vastly different ages to marry.
2. Shared Dark Secrets. Again, Edward being a vampire and his very existence depending on secrecy makes this translatable to real life, but I would refer back to my analogy of a person in witness protection living a new identity to not only protect themselves but also their loved ones from the mob or some other group that would do them harm. Might I also point out(and I am sorry if I give too much away) that in the last book, when Jacob and Bella do tell Charlie about what is going on, he does not handle it very well. He remains blissfully ignorant(his choice as much as theirs) of the details of their transformations, and simply accepts that they are somehow "special".
3. "Us" versus "Them". This can be totally encompassed within Edward's existence as a vampire and the needed secrecy that he needs and the social misunderstandings that it creates which I have already addressed several times.
4.Isolation and Seclusion. Again, the already addressed issue of Edward's vampiric nature/secrecy plays a major role in this concern as well. Take away the vampireness, and the isolation/seclusion goes away. To objections that even without Edward's vampiric nature they would still be isolated/secluded, I point to both dinner and the baseball game. Edward is very connected with his family and as we see, spends time with both Bella and his family together. Again forgive me if I give away too much, but Edward describes in the latest movie how if they had met in his time, they would have had a traditional courtship including chaperones. Coupled with his strong conviction towards chastity and non-violence, this is hardly the characteristics of a controlling/domineering boyfriend trying to isolate a girl to take advantage of her.
5. Mismatched Interests and Values. Again, we must take into account the fictitious aspect of Edwards vampiric nature and how that does not directly translate into our real life. I do agree that a "spiritual" mismatch of a christian and non-christian is unhealthy and should not be encouraged. Having already addressed the issue of Edward's soul and his "bad boy" status, it is premature to assume that Bella is a "daughter of light" and Edward a "son of darkness". In fact, which Edward's high moral standards regarding sexuality and human life, I would argue that he is just as much a champion of light as she is if not more so. I will admit that the combination of human/vampire does not make for a very good relationship as Bella is in constant danger from Edward's superior strength and blood drinking desire. Bella throughout the entire series wants to rectify this problem by becoming a vampire herself, and as we have already established that is would not necessarily mean forfeiting her soul and being a "child of darkness", this could just as easily be interpreted as an unsaved individual becoming a christian. As far as your thoughts on darkness and light being able to co-exist, I do agree that within each of us they can't do so peacefully. We must either choose light or darkness in our daily lives, we can't follow both. But in a broader scale, a co-existing of light in the darkness is what we as christians are called to do. We are the light of the world, we are instructed to be in the world but not of the world. This means that we must be a light in the darkness and not separated from it. There is a tension there between shining our light in the world and yet still not allowing ourselves to be contaminated by that we must all deal with in our own way.
6. Neediness and Obsession. Yes, I will admit that a sense of "neediness" is potentially unhealthy. Yet I would also point out that we all of needs. We need to eat, sleep, drink, and have human connection. We are also dealing with someone who is a teenage and still figuring out what life is all about. Bella clearly states that Edward is her first boyfriend. This is still a new experience for her. Its exciting and compelling. For anyone who has gotten a new "toy", whether big or small, what was it like after you first got it? You wanted to spend a lot of time with it, figuring it out and learning what it could do or just "playing" with it. Some might call Edward's "stalking" of her creepy, while others might call it sweet and thoughtful due to his very strong concern for her well-being. Need I mention how he rescued her from being raped? Along with how other vampires continually try to kill her. A few other points I would like to make. One being that Bella is not portrayed as having any kind of spiritual beliefs, so to assert that she puts Edward above God when He is totally absent from her thoughts is an unfair assessment. The second is that Bella is not necessarily "suicidal" in any way after Edward leaves. She discovers that she can hear his voice in his head while doing potentially dangerous activities which leads her to ride motorcycles and jump from cliffs into the sea, but taken within the bereavement/grieving process that she was in, it is not entirely uncommon or unhealthy as long as it doesn't lead to real permanent injury. And third, Bella's reaction to Edward's leaving was as much a normal, common grieving at the loss of a very close friend/loved one as any potential "neediness and obsession" response to the loss of the object of the obsession. The grieving process is described in 5 stages: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. These stages are neither linear nor strictly one time events. Bella experiences most of her grieving as denial and depression, wanting to hear Edward's voice again. But eventually her father helps her out of it and gets her to move into the acceptance stage renewing old friendships, particularly her friendship with Jacob Black.
7. Rationalization and Justification. Again, most of this objection rests squarely on Edward being a vampire and the other "negative" aspects of that existence which have previously been addressed, though I will concede that rationalization/justification are normal warning signs that there is a problem.
8. Failure to Seek & Heed Imput. As previously addressed, the need for secrecy hampers Bella's communication with her father concerning Edward and getting his advice/counsel on the relationship. But this does not the case with Edward's family. It is very clearly demonstrated through the book that Edward shares very strong ties with his family and especially with his father, Carlisle. Some might object to a perceived "passive" approach they take toward guiding their sons relationship, they are still open and available to both Bella and Edward to give counsel when needed, a fact which they do take advantage of.
Now I know that I am not necessarily going to change your minds with this post, but I hope that this will at least give you something to think about and perhaps reconsider your views on the "evils" of Twilight. As scripture says, may you be "innocent as doves, and cunning as serpents." Have a great day.
on Saturday, July 3, 2010 at 7:30 pm
Do I need to see the films to know they aren't good? No
Do I need to do drugs to know they will hurt? No
Do I need to become a prostitute to know it is harmful? No
Whatsoever things are good, pure, honest... think on THESE things!
I think Paul came across issues very much like this or he wouldn't have spoken so adamently against mingling with the world.
on Saturday, July 3, 2010 at 7:34 pm
Romans 14, read it. Embrace it.
***
Nathan - beautiful post. During college a group of us would meet for Hollywood Theology, where we would discuss what Hollywood says is a right way to live and compare it to what scripture states is the correct way of living. Eclipse is being used for one at my alma mater soon, and I intend to go and share my views and the parallels that can be drawn (of course, I am a non-denominational believer with Calvinist/Emergent tendencies, so what I would have to say would be quite different than True Woman, I feel).
Carrying on from my previous post in effort to allow women and men here to see that the World cannot keep out God's truth:
The patterns and situations comparable in the film to my walk are this: Edward (the vampire love interest) and his "family" have set themselves a part from their fellow creatures in that they will not touch human blood (the author refers to it as vegetarianism) - but in order to be successful, they must have eachother for support, and to not be put into temptation in this form (this way of life was empowered by the "father"s faith base from the middle ages - his father was a reverend and Carlisle actually worked with his father in annihilating vampires until he is bitten himself and turned - paulesque, rather. When he was turned he attempted to kill himself, and then he realized through revelation that just because his nature was intended to do harm and kill didn't mean he HAD to - that there were alternatives, and these he shared with others. In side note, the father also claims that there is no evidence of a soul lost once turned, and so he lives his life to help others, which is a valid outlook when you consider the authoress is Mormon, a works based faith.).
So, circling back now, the wrestling with their base nature is something extremely similar to our own daily walk - we struggle with negative emotions, negative responses, our sin, all in effort to walk a life that glorifies and magnifies Christ. We don't have to, we could wiggle and revel in our fallen state, but we choose to do as Paul and wrestle with the flesh to magnify God in obedience.
Going back to this particular film, Eclipse - There are a lot of factors building up to this particular book/film from the others, and with that other parallels and analogies to be drawn from, but one that stood out to me is this: when the "bad" vampires who have been formed to kill the "family" and Bella (the human girl) are shown, they are vile (obviously) - they are attacking eachother, they have no control over their actions, killing at will and random through compulsion - horrific, especially in comparison to the enlightened (for lack of a better term) Cullen family. For someone visual as myself, it rang true of the base nature of who we are without Christ - when we are living with our sin, in our sin, we are as these uncontrollable creatures - sucking the life and beauty out of our surroundings, unable to appreciate anything - our responses and desires are utterly selfish - during one of these scenes I was so struck with the fact that that but for the Grace of God am I that I almost broke down in tears in the theater. Then there is the Cullen family - a vampire clan who without the knowledge that they can live a better way would be the same as these, who struggle with their nature in effort to be better and do better. The vampire creature portion of the story is merely setting, but I don't believe that it would be as strong a compulsion to realize what makes the Cullens so different and set a part than if they were otherwise, and I believe that that is where Meyer is going with much of her story line (especially considering her conservative views and the fact she herself has never watched an R rated movie, hates horror, and has three darling childrens!).
A lot of Meyer's conservative Mormon themes are within these books - that is why I enjoy them, especially in comparison with what is now in the teen reading market. As a counselor in a school during my graduate practicum I can attest that I would rather see my students reading these books over many of their counterparts, regardless of faith base,as this is a series that upholds femininity, allows for masculinity, and promotes abstinence (shocker for today's youth fiction, sadly!), as well as other positives.
***
Remember, ladies and gentlemen - Paul himself stated "I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. " Therefore, if you believe X is unclean, thus it is for you, and it would be wrong for a loving sibling in Christ to force you into such a situation or for you to engage in it willingly while maintaining doubts. However, remember to fight the feeling of superiority and pridefulness that is easy to succumb to in these types of discussions. (Remember, this statement does not have to deal with things that are point blanking called by Christ to be sins, such as murder, promiscuity, coveting, etc).
on Saturday, July 3, 2010 at 8:26 pm
2 Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.
Why do some Christians seem to be finding so much "revelation" of God's Word in this movie Twilight yet they aren't able to or refuse to accept what God's Word says about this kind of topic? I mean, Christians are actually using SCRIPTURE-GOD'S HOLY WORD to support and defend the viewing/financial support of this movie. And when someone speaks or posts against it, all of sudden they are labeled as judgmental or harsh, or told that their tone is all wrong. I can't tell you how disappointing this has been.
My God, if we can't stand together for truth in something like this, how will we be able to stand for for what's ahead, as we continue to see more and more godlessness and deception in these last days.
Don't be deceived - our adversary is subtle and cunning and guess what? He can, will and does use media. So I pray that those who are standing for truth are encouraged to keep standing, to continue to watch and pray (especially for their children) and to keep standing on God's word - even when it's unpopular to do so with other Christians.
on Saturday, July 3, 2010 at 10:03 pm
on Sunday, July 4, 2010 at 8:38 am
(And for the record, I am a proud father.)
However, most commenters are running in circles - one side says, "you can't keep your kids in a bubble," and the other fires back, "that doesn't mean we willingly explain in detail Evil to them."
To all those comparing Twilight to a car crash ("would you let your child get behind the wheel to see how bad wrecks are?"), a strip club, etc. - you're making a huge mistake. You KNOW strip clubs are bad, as are car wrecks. The whole point some are making here is that you DON'T know if the Twilight movies are bad. If you're assuming they're the same, you've already decided, even before you hear the information you've supposedly come here to get.
My child is young, and is only now learning to copy surrounding adults. It scares me...but I think as parents we might do well to give ourselves a break - we're not going to get it all right. They might see a bad movie, or be exposed to dangerous ideas, or something much, much worse, and I have to accept at some point that, in the end, there is almost NOTHING I can do to keep all this from them. Total sheltering might work, but it also might cause the child to rebel and end up in much worse circumstances. Any blanket prescription that covers all children is nonsense, and needs to be seen as such.
If anyone's up for some friendly advice - I've found that the best way to resolve these kinds of discussions with kids (I've been working with them my whole life) is to get them involved in something much bigger than the movie or book, be it a charity, a soup kitchen, or what-have-you. As soon as they see just how good they have it, and how bad off the rest of the world can be, most petty discussions about culture disappear.
on Sunday, July 4, 2010 at 2:07 pm
on Monday, July 5, 2010 at 10:24 am
on Tuesday, July 6, 2010 at 11:04 am
Your article was truly eye opening. I knew these movies were not a good thing for Christians to partake in but the implications you pointed out are so true. Unfortunately I have seen all these signs in a young girl's relationship with a non-believer and yet she refuses to see them for herself. Once the relationship becomes sexual it seems girls are no longer able to see the truth or reality. Thank you for your article.
on Wednesday, July 7, 2010 at 6:05 pm
Too many Christians don't want to believe that we are in a Spiritual Battle every single day and that Satan tries whatever he can to deceive us. After reading your article I am even more convinced that my husband and I need to seriously pray about how to handle this within our own congregation. I believe that it is an issue that needs to be discussed, but in a way that shows we truly care and that we are not trying to be "holy rollers" or "holier than thou". Satan so decieves us with things that might look pretty on the outside, or seem to, but on the inside are dark and evil.
Thanks for sharing your heart and an insight into these movies. Please pray for us as we seek God's wisdom in addressing our congregation!
on Wednesday, July 7, 2010 at 6:34 pm
As for this promoting chastity... that's a lie. They only abstain because EDWARD imposes it, not because Bella has any virtue. The book is very clear that Bella would have been delighted to hop in the sack had Ed been willing. I'm sorry to be blunt, but this is the hard truth. And if these stories are so "pure" I'd like to know why Meyer never stops writing about Edward's body. She's OBSESSED.
No one seems to want to address that Bella is as much of a problem as Edward. Bella is weak, manipulative, selfish, shallow, and utterly indifferent to the feelings and needs of others. She is NOT a biblical ideal, as she only values others in regard to how they relate to her. She puts her father through all kinds of needless misery in order to protect Edward, and excuses everything he does merely because he's "pretty".
Biblical women were 100% woman, but they were VALIANT. Remember Jael? Remember Deborah? What about Rahab, Ruth, Esther, and Mary who risked everything! Brave women needn't be less Godly, but caving for evil men is not a virtue. Bella caves to these domineering selfish men because it gets her what she wants in the end, and how is that pleasing to God? (Yes Caity, please cave to your abusive boyfriend in anything that he wants because that's what a girl does.)
I would worry a lot less about occult in these books(I study folklore, and believe me, these vampires have more in common with Victorian fairies than they do Bram Stoker) and more about these relational issues. The occult is prevalent in real life, and I think that it bears consideration, but Meyer didn't write her vampires traditionally. She turned them into demented Mormon angels with a "dietary issue". I think having your daughter read about Mormon ideas of the afterlife, angels, and immortality would have much more bearing on the books than, say, witchcraft.
I read these dreadful things from the perspective of battling them head-on. Paul himself could better speak to religious men in Roman temples because of his knowledge of the Roman world (see Acts for more details). Since doing that, two girls I know have given up the books and now openly battle the mania with me. God used me and my knowledge for His purpose. Please, never assume ignorance will protect your child. How would she understand that mormonism is an insidious cult without studying it? How can she reject darkness for light if it's only sketchily defined in her own home? How would I be able to battle Gnosticism that because popular if I didn't study it and understand Dan Brown's lies? read the Screwtape letters, and you'll see that Satan would prefer you remain ignorant of his weapons.
on Wednesday, July 7, 2010 at 11:12 pm
there are parts the in 4th book that talk about bella and edward having sex but they are married. i don't think younger children should read the 4th book because i think readers need to be mature enough to read it. many of the comments on here about how horrible and ungodly the books are, i think we need to be mature enough to read them. we should be able to read and enjoy the story without it offending us.
i believe its an enjoyable creative story and i don't think that the post should have been written without a full knowledge of all the parts of the story.
on Wednesday, July 7, 2010 at 11:55 pm
Vampires, werewolves etc. do not depict anything holy, good or godly. the fact that vampires drink blood should be enough of a red flag. I was not just the Israelites in the OT who were commanded not to eat blood (Leviticus 7:26,27 "Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings. Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.") it is also in the NT. (Acts 15:29 "That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.") Yes, drinking blood is part of idol worship then and now...so vampires who drink blood would not be of God. The fact that the vampire and the werewolf are both very handsome just shows the deceitfulness of Satan trying to make something very evil appear good. It is the same trick he has used since the Garden of Eden.
To those who would say that it is fantasy or fiction I say be very careful. The Corinthian church didn't have any problem eating meat offered to idols because "idols are nothing" but Paul admonished them in I Corinthians 10:20-23 "But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord's and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful unto me, but all things edify not."
Be careful what you allow into your hearts and minds and that of your children so that you do not give place to the devil. He is our adversary who walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. He is trying to get a stronghold in each and everyone of our lives to destroy us. God's Word says in II Cor. 10:5 "Casting down imaginations,and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ:" We are suppose to think on those things that are true, honest, just, pure, lovely and of good report.
"What you allow in moderation, your children will do in excess." Be very careful, prayerful and discerning. We are called to be different from the world, separated, holy as He is holy. Ephesians 5:8- "For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9.For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10.Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.....
15.See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16.Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is....
27. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
on Friday, July 9, 2010 at 10:39 am
on Friday, July 9, 2010 at 1:50 pm
on Sunday, July 11, 2010 at 1:14 pm
on Sunday, July 11, 2010 at 3:50 pm
on Sunday, July 11, 2010 at 5:16 pm
on Sunday, July 11, 2010 at 8:10 pm
Most Christian teens I've spent time with are very weak in their knowledge of doctrine and theology. They tend not to have much Scripture memorized and few have read through the Bible completely more than once. But their knowledge of pop culture is jaw-dropping.
on Monday, July 12, 2010 at 2:05 am
on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 at 2:03 am
@kim, Yes I would defend Scripture as adamantly as I defend Twilight when called to do so. Twilight has strengthened my Faith and increased my conviction to hold to standards of respect and purity in my relationships. We always look at what these books tell young girls, but what do they tell young boys? In a world that communicates boys/men as sex-crazed idiots, Twilight has been a breath of fresh air saying that chastity and respect for girls/women is still something to be worked for and a worthwhile goal.
Tell me, from Galatians 5:22-23, which of the Fruits of the Spirit do the Cullen family not exhibit? Remember, Paul says that you know which prophets are from God by their works. Those who do good works are of God, those who do evil works are from Satan.
Yes, I read scripture and do daily prayers. I grew up as a pastor's son, attending church 3 times a week. Even now, I attend Divine Liturgy and take Communion each week. My "credentials" as a Christian are spotless.
This makes me wonder. Would any of you survive spiritually in a country that is not as "clean" as America. Countries in Europe routinely use pornography in their public advertisements. I am not just talking about tv or internet, but public billboards and signage. Would you "avoid the appearance of evil" in the situation, locking yourself in your house/apt, defying God's command to go into all the world and preach the Gospel, or would you learn to filter your mind and thoughts, realizing that God is great in you than Satan in the world, and go about normal life. I don't think you realize how much power you unwittingly give Satan by this attitude/stance you take. For you, as long as Satan can put even the slightest bit of untruth/evil into something, he can deprive you of all the good and blessedness that God could have worked in your life through it.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but to paraphrase Aslan from the Chronicles of Narnia...that which is evil, though done in Aslan's name, is not of Aslan but of Tash(Narnia's version of Satan) and he who does it is the child of Tash. That which is good, though done in Tash's name, is not of Tash but of Aslan and he who does it is the child of Aslan.
on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 at 10:25 am
The Twilight Saga represents a lot of things. Sure. There's lust, and danger, idolatry. But there's also devotion, character, and morals. It represents standing for what you believe in and going against your urges and desires.
I really think that you should read the series before you make judgment calls on it. Because if you did, I think your opinions might change. True, if you were to compare this story to real life relationships, it would be completely unhealthy with too many red flags to count. But it's not. It's a fictional story about vampires and shape-shifters that turn in to wolves.
And to go by what you're saying:
For a vamp, Edward's not really a bad boy at all. He's conservative, sensitive, and has good, old-fashioned morals. He doesn't drink human blood, and actually saves Bella's life on multiple occasions.
Bella has no choice but to keep what Edward is a secret. A) Who would believe her? (They'd just think she was crazy.) and B) Who would let their teenage girl date a vampire?
As for the "us" against "them" mentality, that's not really the case. The only time that's really true is when someone's after them. Or when Jacob doesn't agree because once again, who wants someone they care about dating a vampire?
Bella was already a loner. She didn't fit in before she knew about Edward, or even knew of him. Edward doesn't isolate her. She does it to herself. She likes being with him because she feels comfortable and finally as if she belongs. (And if you read the 4th book, she's much happier and seems more suited to being a vamp than being human. And once again, she wanted to change, against his wishes, and is only changed to keep from dying...figuratively, I guess.)
Bella believes Edward does have a soul, as she proclaims so ardently in the third movie. And throughout the whole series. They also have similar tastes in music. I believe their differences in upbringing and values is what makes him so good for her (seeing as his values and upbringing are more wholesome than hers).
The neediness is easy to explain. He's a vampire. Everything about vampires draw people in. Of course she's going to be needy and act recklessly without him. Taking it away suddenly would be like taking drugs away from a druggie. There's gonna be withdrawal symptoms.
I believe I've addressed everything else already.
This is simply my opinion. I don't like being judged for liking the series or being told that I am less of a christian for doing so. It's not true at all. I am now stronger in my faith than I ever have been.
on Monday, July 26, 2010 at 2:44 pm
For those who are asking if all fantasy is forbidden, I would like to add this. While most fantasy stories present a battle between good and evil, there are few like Twilight where the protagonist chooses the evil and is rewarded for it. This story reinforces the idea that good and evil are intertwined, and that a choice so big as whom to marry will work out well even if it was obviously a bad decision.
on Thursday, August 26, 2010 at 5:36 pm
on Friday, October 15, 2010 at 9:41 pm
As you said regarding the gender roles Bella personafied women. She was vulnerable, compassionate, caring, loving, she had an inner strength that allowed her to care for her dim-witted mother and her bachelor father, she has a gentle, caring nature, she doubted her worth, her life, her purpose. We as women are essentially the same on many levels. We all have an inner strength that comes out when we need it to. She began to realize her worth when she began a relationship with Edward. Much like we begin to realize our own worth when we start a relationship with God.
Another parallel was when Edward left and she grew depressed, despondant etc. This is how we were before we knew God, and how we are when we turn away from God. Our lives cease to have true meaning. When the reason for our existence is removed, nothing really matters, and we start looking to other things to pull us out of our misery(i.e. Jacob) instead of to God.
I know this is a different take, and these two different outlooks are what I will present to my children when they are old enough to read the books. I believe the books show more of these parallels than the movies did. These books are not bad, unless the teachings of the parents are sound. If we teach our children about God, good and evil, fantasy and reality then we need to rely on our teachings and trust our children.
on Monday, November 15, 2010 at 2:44 pm
on Friday, November 26, 2010 at 11:24 pm
How interesting that this blog has a topic list and under this list is a category: "Relationship with God." And under that category, there is a posting, called, "Ask God to Fulfill His Purposes: Surviving - Thriving - In An Economic Crisis" that was posted on Dec 10, 2008.
There was only ONE comment to that post.
What does that say about us?
As I look over the comments to THIS post, I am amazed at the lengths, the details, the defenses, the debates, the drama, the passions of them all..all 136 of them.
Such passion and enormous amount of time spent on one post about fictional characters that do nothing to educate us about our heavenly Father.
136 of them to be exact.
And yet, only ONE comment dedicated to a post about asking God to Fulfill His Purposes....
Now, if Edward were to post and ask us to write in asking us about what we think HIS purpose in Twilight was, how many comments do you think that post would render?
My point is, for a Christian blog, I think anyone (secular or Christian) would find these comments a basis for claiming Twilight an obsession for many.
Obsession is defined simply as: • an idea or thought that continually preoccupies or intrudes on a person's mind.
If any thought or idea continually preoccupies ones mind - if it isn't pleasing to God, or glorifying Him, then perhaps that thought doesn't belong there.
And to those Christians who shrug and defensively say, "It's only a book! It's fiction," remember there are many more others who shrug and defensively say, "It's only a book!" when they toss the bible carelessly to the side and call it "fiction" when Christians try to defend its validity just as the followers of Twilight strongly defend its harmlessness - as we can read in these comments.
Again, there's the post with only one comment and then there is this post with now 137 comments.
What does that really say about how we spend our time?
I have no idea who Edward is.
But I gather he is someone of interest.
I personally know someone divinely interesting and worthy of my time and efforts.
Just a thought.
on Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 2:59 am
on Monday, December 6, 2010 at 2:00 am
on Monday, February 21, 2011 at 5:34 pm