25 comments

Kimberly Wagner

Instructed to love

Posted on 02.03.09 by Kimberly Wagner | Twitter: @KimberlyWagner7
Topics: Relationship with God

By His grace and power, we will:
Seek to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength.
–True Woman Manifesto Commitment #1

If you were to drop by my home for a visit, you might notice a curious object attached to the wood framing of my front door. It's about five inches long and not quite two and a half inches wide. This small, oblong container is called a mezuzah. I purchased it several years ago in Israel. It holds a small piece of parchment with Deuteronomy 6:4-9 inscribed on it with the word, “Shaddai,” Hebrew for “Almighty.” It is a common practice for observant Jewish homes to have this affixed to the door frame as a constant reminder of God's presence and of the central prayer of Judaism, the Shema.

Listen to the first portion of the Shema: “Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart” (Deut. 6:4-6).

As you read these words, do you find it curious—as I do—that we have to be instructed to love God? I mean, think about it. He's our creator and our source for existence. He is a merciful and gracious Savior. He has continually proven Himself to be a faithful and benevolent provider. His character and nature are demonstrated by such things as: moral purity, loving-kindness, truthfulness, goodness, patience, and self-sacrifice. When it comes to this amazing God, what is there not to love? And yet, throughout Scripture we see these instructions to love God repeated. 

I think it is noteworthy that we find reference to hating and loving God encased in His Ten Commandments issued in Exodus 20:2-17. As God is communicating His law to the Israelites, He ties obedience to love and idolatry to hatred. This is the first direct reference to humanity “loving” God and it is placed within the context of exclusive obedience to Him.

This gives reason to pause and consider whether we use the terminology of “love” rather loosely. Is my exuberant proclamation of love for Christ backed up with more convincing proof than my visible demonstration of  love for pizza?

What does “loving God” really look like? Can it be described, demonstrated, cultivated, or kindled? Can it be faked? How do you portray your love for God to others? How do you demonstrate your love to Him? I'd love to hear your comments.    

 

Comments

  1. It's amazing that I had just finished highlighting these passages in my new Bible. You are right. what's not to love about God? And we do use the word love too often and too loosely. Yet, I believe that true and deep love for God is a progressive thing. I didn't all of a sudden arrive at loving Him. I believe that I am just now coming to really know Him and trust Him. With each stage and season of my life, I am loving Him more because the Word becomes more a part of me. Then the Spirit illumines my mind to understanding the God of the Bible. The more I know Him, the more I trust Him, the more I obey Him, the more I love Him. It seems to be all tied together. We can't have one without the other.
    posted by Starr Bowlin
    on Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 10:37 am
  2. Starr,

    I agree completely. True and deep love for God is a progressive thing - the more I get to know Him, the more I love Him! And the best way to get to know Him is through His Word. It reveals to us what He wants us to know about Himself!

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts dear sister. Keep highlighting and enjoying that new Bible :-)
    posted by Kimberly Wagner
    on Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 11:15 am
  3. One thing that comes to mind about loving God is being passionate for His glory. It's about living for Him instead of living for myself. To cultivate my love for God, I spend time in the Word, in prayer, in worship through song, taking in truth by listening to preaching and teaching of the Word, and by conversing with others who love Him.
    I can portray my love of God to others by obedience to Him. One specific area I'm thinking of right now is in my marriage--I cannot say I love God and not love my husband. I can demonstrate this by dying to my own desires and serving him: "...but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others." (Phil. 2:3-4) The Lord reminded me of this truth and convicted me of something in this area this very morning.
    posted by Vivian
    on Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 11:19 am
  4. I'm finding myself lately asking God to help me to love Him or to help me comprehend His love. I really want to understand what it means to love God. I have my own ideas of what loving God means but I'm finding myself drawn to ask God to help me love Him in the way that He desires. I remember Elisabeth Elliot saying once that we needed to be honest with God about our love levels. If we didn't love Him like we needed to and we didn't seem to know how, then we ought to confess it to Him and ask Him to show us how. What does loving God look like? It's more than just words in a song or words on our lips. So, that's what I am doing now.

    I've heard a lot of people talk about learning to love yourself and self esteem issues. However, I think that most people think to highly of themselves already. I want to learn to love God and let His love flow through me to someone else. I personally can be pretty hard hearted at times but I'm praying for the Lord to move that hardness and help me to love Him with all my heart, soul, mind and strength - to make me aware of the souls around me that need Him.
    posted by Jodi Collins
    on Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 11:42 am
  5. I appreciate your thoughts on loving God. We too have a mezuzah by our door (given to us by our son who studied in Israel). And I have to tell you a fun story: our 20 year old son told me he had a surprise for me when we went to visit him at college. Turned out to be a tattoo which didn't surprise me. BUT the tattoo he had put on his forearm is Hebrew letters for the Shema: Love the Lord with all your heart....Deut 6 that you shared. He told me that he wanted to have it put on his forearm to remind him DAILY to love the Lord with all his heart. My son challenges me to ask God daily to have my eyes wide open to those He wants me to show love to....sometimes its simply a smile in the store, often it's saying thank you via phone/email to someone for their service to Jesus and mostly it's doing my best with God's help to reflect Jesus in all I say and do - first to my family and then to others. That's where it has to start.
    posted by Marlae Gritter
    on Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 12:13 pm
  6. I ask you please pray for me, I want to love God more and more and to find delight in Him.
    posted by Alis
    on Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 12:46 pm
  7. What does “loving God” really look like? Can it be described, demonstrated, cultivated, or kindled? Can it be faked? How do you portray your love for God to others? How do you demonstrate your love to Him? I'd love to hear your comments.

    One word: Obedience

    True, pure, passionate and outstanding... indescribable OBEDIENCE.

    John 14:21: "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
    posted by mar
    on Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 1:00 pm
  8. I have been so encouraged by the notes here.. esp. on loving God through the expression of loving our families and those around us. Thanks Marlae.. I think I have always been raised to think that loving God is by having daily quiet time and prayer time with him, attending church on Sundays, and helping out at church ministries.
    I know that's important to the Lord, but its so easy to pray the right words and say the right things to the Lord and then forget all when I start my day with my family or interaction with friends and neighbors.
    posted by Steph
    on Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 1:11 pm
  9. About a year ago, I discovered that I had received love for my accomplishments. I felt that my parents loved me because of what I did (could do) and not just because I was their daughter. Not long after that, I was feeling very unloved one Sunday morning due to a number of inconsiderate things my husband had done (and then laughed when I mentioned them). Before I went into the service, I was meditating on Jeremiah 31:3 -- an amazing verse on the love of God. That morning, the entire song service, including special music and choir specials, was about the love of God. During that service, God overwhelmed with his love. By the time the choir left the platform, tears were runnng freely down my face. Since that moment, I have not doubted God's love for me, and my love for Him grows daily. I have a desire to read my Bible and pray, which I never had before no matter how hard I tried. It is amazing what a knowledge of God's love does in a life!
    posted by Valerie Riley
    on Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 1:12 pm
  10. What comes to mind when I think about what it means to love God (especially after you referenced Deut 6) are the verses that follow -- that we should have these commands on our hearts, impress them on our children, talk about them when we sit at home or walk along the road or when we lie down or get up, tie them around our hands and on our foreheads, and write them on the doors of our homes and on our gates. In view of this amazing passage, loving God can be so overwhelming!!! :) That seems like SO much to give and SO much to do, and yet our God is worth SO much more! I totally agree with the comments above that loving God is progressive - we love Him more as we know Him more - and it is such a journey! I am just so thankful that He gives us the ability to do what He has asked of us. My prayer is that His grace will not be in vain (1 Cor 15:10) in my life but that I will take the grace He provides each moment to step in His direction and become more and more like Him. (By the way - It is so great to be edified by each other on this blog!)
    posted by Emily
    on Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 1:45 pm
  11. I smiled as I got to the end of your teaching today because I have been reading a great book by Chuck Colson called Loving God. He talks about what truly loving God looks like. One of the ways we love God is through obedience to His Word. That is an outward evidence that proves our love for Him. Another way we love God is through repentance and yet another way is through striving to live a holy life which brings us back around to obedience. Quoting from his book, "The Christian life begins with obedience, depends on obedience, and results in obedience." Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep my commandments." I have committed this year to learning more about what it means to love God. He is so awesome and so deserving of our love. What boggles my mind is why He would love us so much!
    posted by Cindy Jack
    on Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 6:08 pm
  12. I find the question, can it be faked, very interesting. You might think, doing things for others when you would really rather be doing something else, fake. I am speaking of every day things that I believe God would want us to do. Some of the time, we do it when everything in us does not want to. I believe this might be when we really show our love to God. I thank God for the grace he gives to do the things he wants and I pray we can do those things with joy in our hearts. I thank him for loving me.
    posted by tamara
    on Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 10:16 pm
  13. Good evening ladies. I am a married Christian husband (30-year anniversary in March) and father of two really great children. As a male, after reading the posts here, I must say that I am deeply troubled.

    Does anyone here recall what Jesus says is his command in the book of John. It is to love one another. That includes husbands and wives. This website, the manifesto I read, and the posts here are not about love. They are instead a recipe for turning God's beautiful, intelligent, and capable female creations into door mats to any husband or other male figure who wants to use the Bible as an excuse to walk over them with spiked boots for the rest of their married lives. As I man, I can tell you that this is exactly what will happen to most of you if you pursue this course of action. I know men. I know them well. I am one. Many of you will end up on Zoloft, and some may even commit suicide, much as I dislike having to say it.

    The "precept upon precept" principle and the cherry-picking of Biblical "proof texts" to support a course of action (like in your manifesto) is very common these days. Precepts are religious rules that human beings create for themselves. They do this by taking a Bible verse, reading into it an assigned meaning that may not really there, and turning it into a man-made daily rule for life. A perfect example of that is taking the Old Testament verses that establish the tithe, reading into them the notion that they somehow have to do with taxation in the modern sense, and then declaring the discovery of a Biblical precept saying that God and the Bible require the IRS to impose a flat tax. This is absolute nonsense because it is an example of people using the Bible to create man-made extra-Biblical rules. By doing this, one could twist the Bible so it appears to undergird just about any outrageous thing a person could dream up. This is a sin---a very radical sin. If you will open your Bibles to Genesis and read carefully, you will notice the true nature of original sin (and in doing so remember Jesus's admonition that sin begins first in the heart--not just in the action that comes after it. Notice that disobedience was not the original sin. The original sin in Eve's heart was that she wanted to (catch this) "...be like God, knowing the difference between good and evil." That is something that God reserves exclusively to himself. This is the very reason why Jesus castigates and thoroughly blisters the Scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 22. They have used the scriptures as the basis for creating their own laws, and they have begun to follow them as if these "traditions of men" are themselves scripture. By creating their own moral system (which is based on scripture in their minds), they show themselves to be radical sinners. In my humble opinion, that is the course that this website and its manifesto is taking---and for that reason---I feel sure that those who follow it will reap nothing but misery.

    A marriage is neither built nor maintained on so-called "scripture- based" precepts. A marriage is not built on a set of man-made rules based on proof texts that have been cherry-picked from the Bible---while ignoring other contrary verses about the nature of marriage. Ladies, someone is trying to sell you the notion that the Bible requires all women to be mindless, passive, incapable blow-up dolls doomed to a 1950s TV situation comedy existence in the suburbs. This is insane. God gave you kind ladies a brain. That at least suggests that he requires you to actually use it. Think on what I just said, and think on this two.

    God is love. Throughout the New Testament, Jesus, his disciples, and the apostles say over and over again that LOVE is the most important thing. We live in an age in which this love that Jesus commands (as his singular commandment to John) has been consigned to a dark dungeon and replaced with rule upon rule upon rule---many man-made. As one evangelical pastor has actually said in his book, "Love cannot be trusted because it is by its very nature permissive." In other words, forget what Jesus said and go find some rules. Rules will make your life happy. However, we know that is not true, for the apostle Paul says plainly in scripture that the LAW is the "way of death."

    Good marriages are based on love---not some rule---not some manifesto. This love is not a one-way street reserved just for women. It is mutual love for each other. In addition, it is not just submission of a wife to a husband---another one-way street. If you read further into the New Testament, you will find that the scripture says that husbands and wives are to SUBMIT TO EACH OTHER in love. Do you remember what Jesus said? Love God with all of your heart and soul and mind---and love one another. All of the law and the prophets are comprehended in that one saying. I firmly believe that Jesus came down in the midst of the Roman Empire because He knew that humanity was entering an age of such complexity that the "rules-based" religion of the Old Testament would no longer serve mankind. Instead, with the guiding power of the Holy Spirit, he gave the two love aspects of the Golden Rule as a guide that could be easily adapted and used in any situation that might come along---and if we misjudged---there would always be grace to cover our accidental and all too human errors.

    Husbands---love your wives and treat them with reverence and respect. Wives---love your husbands and treat them with reverence and respect. Submit to each other. Remember that love does not mean, "I get my way every time and you do not." That is not love. That is selfishness pure and simple.

    Thank you for letting a man have his say to you fine ladies.
    posted by Tracy Brown
    on Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 11:11 pm
  14. Tracy, thanks for sharing your heart on this issue. Having been married now for 30 plus years, I don't think you have to worry about women simply adopting a set of mindless rules so that the manifesto can be promoted. Personally, I am far too selfish to love anyone as scripture describes love. (1 Cor. 13 for example). I find that apart from my freedom to access God's love for my family, my ability to consistently love on my own is non-existent.
    I have chosen to love my husband with the love that God provides. I consider myself fairly intelligent and intentional about how my life does or doesn't glorify God. I am so thankful that I have had the privilege to become a student of God's revealed character as He portrays Himself through His word. But I am overwhelmed with the fact that He loved me enough to grant me life through Christ. Not fake, not performance, not rules, but CHRIST IN ME - that brings life, not death !
    posted by Truth
    on Wednesday, February 4, 2009 at 3:38 am
  15. Mr. Brown,

    I appreciate your concern for the women on this site. I do however, disagree with much of your assessment.

    You stated that, “This website, the manifesto . . . and the posts here are not about love. They are instead a recipe for turning God's beautiful, intelligent, and capable female creations into door mats . . .”

    “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;” (2 Timothy 3:16). This website, the True Woman Manifesto and the articles posted on this site are dedicated to the truth of Scripture and its application to our lives. God has graciously provided His Word as a means of guidance and instruction. It is not merely a beautiful literary or historical document.

    I agree with your statement, “ one could twist the Bible so it appears to under gird just about any outrageous thing a person could dream up” but I disagree with your opinion that we are using Scripture in that manner. I am thankful for the careful attention to Scriptural fidelity and theological accuracy that was given to preparing the True Woman Manifesto. I appreciate Dr. John Piper's endorsement, when he described it as being “faithful, clear, true, wise, indeed a magnificent document.”

    In response to your concerns about the view of marriage we are presenting, let me encourage you to read John Piper's book, “This Momentary Marriage.” He is a well respected scholar and theologian and can articulate the beautiful aspects of God's design in a manner far superior to anything I could convey.

    I agree that, as believers, we should follow the admonition of Scripture to “be subject to one another in the fear of Christ” (Eph. 5:21). This is referring to our conduct toward one another, not our roles. God has given unique gender distinctions to men and women and designed marriage as a beautiful complementarity union.

    Men and women are of equal worth and value. We are to be loving and serving one another humbly in the unique role God has assigned. God's designation for woman in the role of “helper” in Genesis, is not an inferior position. When Paul describes the functioning of the husband as “the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church” (Eph. 5:23) he was reiterating the role distinctions of marital partners as expressed repeatedly through Scripture.

    Although men may use Scripture to cruelly dominate women and treat them disrespectfully – that is a perversion of God's complementary design for marriage. In John Piper's book, “What's the Difference?” he presents God's vision for men and women as they are to live out their unique differences. Let me close by quoting him:

    “This is the way God meant it to be before there was any sin in the world: sinless man, full of love, in his tender, strong leadership in relation to woman; and sinless woman, full of love, in her joyful, responsive support for man's leadership. No belittling from the man, no groveling from the woman. Two intelligent, humble, God-entranced beings living out, in beautiful harmony, their unique and different responsibilities. Sin has distorted this purpose at every level. We are not sinless anymore. But we believe that recovery of mature manhood and womanhood is possible by the power of God's Spirit through faith in his promises and in obedience to his Word.”
    posted by Kimberly Wagner
    on Wednesday, February 4, 2009 at 9:03 am
  16. Jodi,

    Those are great questions to ask God. He delights in answering a heart that is seeking how to most glorify Him. One of my most frequently repeated prayers throughout my life has been, "Lord give me more love to give back to you."

    I issue that request knowing that, in myself, I have no depth of understanding or great capacity to love Him - but I desire to give Him the love, honor, and glory that He deserves. So I ask Him to do what I cannot - to fill me with more love for Him, in order that I might give it back to Him!
    posted by Kimberly Wagner
    on Wednesday, February 4, 2009 at 9:13 am
  17. Dear Alis,

    As you ask God to reveal to you more of His character, as you dig into His Word with a desire to know and understand more of Him - as you begin to see Him in the beauty of His holiness, your love for Him will deepen and grow.

    " . . . the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us . . . But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:5, 8).

    "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins . . . if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us" (1 John 4:10, 12).

    Lord Jesus, You know Alis' heart and her request to love You more and find her delight in You. Would You draw her close to Yourself and grant her the grace to respond to Your love for her, by giving her more love to give back to You? As Paul counted all things as loss in view of the surpassing value of know You, Christ Jesus, may her knowledge of Your character and attributes fuel her desire to walk in obedience to You. May she delight herself fully in You.
    posted by Kimberly Wagner
    on Wednesday, February 4, 2009 at 9:36 am
  18. Cindy,

    I'm so glad you're reading one of my favorite books! Chuck Colson's, "Loving God" is truly an excellent resource for getting a handle on this subject. What perfect timing He has, that He would lead you to study that at this time!

    Thanks for passing on this book title. I hope other women might pick up this book to read as we are focusing this month on loving God.
    posted by Kimberly Wagner
    on Wednesday, February 4, 2009 at 9:41 am
  19. I think you focus too much on a wife's submission. This submission has to be in context. Also, women do not submit to all men. You seem to endorse heavy handed authority of men over women. Also, you make the point that women are equal, but disagree over them having equal opportunities. There are also subtle hints in the manifesto that women should not use birth control. I don't like how the manifesto makes woman out to be doormats, but tries to get around this using flowery writing.
    posted by Anne
    on Wednesday, February 4, 2009 at 7:26 pm
  20. Hi Anne. I tend to agree with you on this. It is okay for women to be doormats as long as they put on the aire and clothing of "Jesus Sweetie." I also disagree with the statement that Kimberly Wagner made in response to my long message yesterday. She said:

    "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;” (2 Timothy 3:16). This website, the True Woman Manifesto and the articles posted on this site are dedicated to the truth of Scripture and its application to our lives. God has graciously provided His Word as a means of guidance and instruction."

    The problem with that is simply this. Scripture may be read with the eyes, but it is always filtered for meaning using the human brain of the reader. Just reading it cannot presuppose that one is correctly understanding what it says.

    Some argue that scripture is so simple that even the simple-minded person can run their eyes across it and by grace of the Holy Spirit understand what it means. I do not think that is entirely true for several reasons:

    1) It is clear from the Old Testament that it was written to be read and interpreted to lay people through a cadre of religious leaders and temple priests, people who were civic leaders and likely the most educated people of their times. It is doubtful that the average Jewish man could even read. The Torah may have been given for the average man, but it was not given to the average man. Moses was no average man.

    2) When the printing press was invented quite late in 1439 A.D., a time when most people still did not read, it became possible for the average man to own and read a Bible. That was not altogether bad, but it was not altogether good either. It was not altogther good because every semi-literate half-wit under the sun could sit under his own fig tree, read scripture, and be his own amateur theologian. I do not know about you, but there are lots of well-meaning but quite whacky people that I would not want my child to be in the same car with just for safety reasons alone. Chances are they would drive a Bible just as dangerously as they would drive a car. Therefore, I do not trust a high school dropout, a person with a high school diploma, or even a person with an undergraduate college degree to interpret scripture. That was brought home to me in a Sunday school class about 20 years ago when one of my classmates, a nice young lady about 30, who I believe had attended college, said in class, "Prostitution? You mean they had that back in Bible days? I thought it was invented in just the last 100 years or so." As I recall, the subject that day was pagan temple prostitution in Old Testament times.

    3) One of the reasons we have so many different Christian denominations worldwide is that even highly educated people, people who have attended seminary and sincerely believe in Jesus, read the same words in the Bible and disagree about what they say and what they mean. If the Bible was just very simple and very easy to understand, this kind of disagreement should not exist, but it does.

    4) I cannot remember for sure, but I believe it was Dr. Randall Balmer (an evangelical Christian, Professor of Divinity at Columbia University, and an editor for "Christianity Today" who said that conservative evangelical Christians "...have a penchant for putting their feet firmly down and drawing uncrossable lines in the sand; the only problem is that they tend to draw those lines in the wrong places." For example, during the 1800s, liberal evangelical churches in the north were opposed to slavery for Biblical reasons. The southern conservative evangelical churches were in favor of slavery for Biblical reasons. The northern churches highlighted the evil of Jewish bondage and suffering as slaves in ancient Egypt. The southern churches would cite the book of Titus in the New Testament because it gives instructions on how to be a good Roman slave and be a good Christian too. Personally, I feel slavery is evil because it is stealing. If you force a man to work for you for free and under the threat of a lash, you are stealing from him---plain and simple. However, if I had lived in 1861, I would just be one sincere Holy Spirit-indwelled Bible voice competing with many other sincere HolySpirit-indwelled Bible voices about the issue of slavery.
    Most of us agree today that slavery is wrong and that the conservative evangelicals of the 19th century drew their "line in the sand" in the wrong place.

    Based on their record so far, my best guess is that conservative evangelicals are still drawing those "lines in the sand" in the wrong places today and that the women's manifesto is one of those wrong lines---built on Bible quotes just like the argument in favor of slavery---but still dead wrong. As Jesus teaches us clearly in Matthew 22, we humans can collect all of the scripture verses we want, apply them meticulously to our lives, sew them in the hems of our garments, and even bind them to our heads---and still get it all wrong because we favor the letter of law over the spirit of it. Go give Matthew 22 a good read.

    I would guess that Kimberly Wagner is pretty much seething with anger right now---and either denying it to herself or hiding it from you other ladies under the guise of being a "Jesus Sweetie." So, I am going to relieve her angry tension and make her day in the next few paragraphs.

    I am a member of the United Methodist Church, which is one of those historic mainline American churches you evangelicals and fundamentalists describe as being "apostate." You will recall that the Scribes and Pharisees accused Jesus of being apostate too---and nailed him to a cross just to make their point.

    One of the other things I have observed, by and large, is that the lay women in our church are not the "Jesus Sweetie" type. They tend to be educated, thinking, and action-oriented; good moms, and faithful---and they are no man's doormat. As my very Christian wife is fond of saying to me in her frustrated moments, "Just who in the $%#@ do you think you are anyway." I wince---because she is right---but also love that speech and love the fact that she is able to deliver it. That behavior might be needed when our HMO informs us that our dying child's medical benefits are being denied. Sometimes the Lord prepares us to fight in ways that we do not understand at the time.

    We United Methodists are the second largest protestant denomination in the United States, and we commit unspeakable sins on a regular basis. For example, we ordain women as pastors and put them in leadership postitions over huge churches. In our Sunday school classes, women can teach lessons to men. They are even allowed to cut their hair short, wear makeup, and sport nice jewelry. I know you pentacostalists out there will love that. Horror of horrors!!! Our many sins also include helping and supporting "...the least of these..." with both our donations and your tax dollars---tax dollars really being the most effective way to help the most people. It really is.

    One of our other sins is too great to even contemplate. We have concluded that Jesus is not really a card-carrying member of the Republican Party, and Rush Limbaugh is not his High Priest. In fact, we tend to believe that Jesus is probably not particularly enamored with any national political party---but more so the political entity He might refer to as the Kingdom of Heaven.

    There are many and vastly more sins that our church commits on a regular basis, but I will leave you with just one more. I have been to several church-people gatherings at assorted homes. They have Coca-Cola, Kool-Aid, water, wine, beer, and whiskey. Yep!!! After being the primary mover and shaker for temperance in the 19th Century and watching the horrid end results of that debacle we now call Prohibition, the United Methodist laity finally figured out that the use of alcoholic beverages in moderation is not a sin---not even Biblically. Jesus did turn the water into wine at the wedding, and it was not grape juice (that is a recent evangelical/fundamentalist lie that has been propagated to save the sinking ship of a man-made rule). The Scribes and Pharisees accused Jesus of being a drunken winebibber and partying with sinners. People do not get drunk on grape juice. If you do not believe me, try doing it sometime. They were usng real wine back then, and Jesus was making it and drinking it---because the Bible tells me so. For that matter, so does ancient history independantly.

    So, now that you know how horrifying I am and how horrifying my church is, you can dismiss automatically everything I have said. Go ahead. Feel released. Feel justified. But remember. The Scribes and Pharisees heard waht Jesus had to say, dismissed it out of hand, and nailed him.
    posted by Tracy Brown
    on Thursday, February 5, 2009 at 12:29 am
  21. Mr. Brown,

    I must dissagree with you. Have you read Proverbs 31? Surely you would agree that the woman described here is no "door mat". But instead is a strong, capable wife and mother. Please don't worry about us women, but instead examine your own heart.
    posted by Kim H
    on Thursday, February 5, 2009 at 10:08 am
  22. Dear Anne and Mr. Brown,

    I hope you won't mind me responding to both of you on one comment space.

    Anne,

    I was out running errands last night when a friend called to tell me about your blog comment. She was literally laughing as she thought it absurd that anyone might link me to a “door-mat” mindset. To tell you the truth, I could use a HUGE dose of that mindset if it is anything like Christ's example of humility.

    Your perspective of the women involved in this movement is less than accurate.

    The women in leadership roles are certainly not “wimpy women.” These women are articulate, intelligent, strong women. They have taken advantage of opportunities to use their abilities in various fields.

    Mary Kassian is an award winning author and serves one of the largest seminaries in the world as a Distinguished Professor of a Master's level course.

    Carolyn McCulley, also an author, is a single woman who has been a political talk show producer and commercial film producer. She is currently starting a film company that will produce socially-conscious documentaries.

    Nancy DeMoss is not only a best-selling Christian author of several books, but is a respected teacher in the predominately male medium of Christian radio; she hosts 2 daily national radio programs and is heard on more than 1000 stations.

    Holly Elliff is one of the strongest women I know. She not only faithfully serves her husband and family, but for several years cared for her mother-in-law with Alzheimer's. She is now the primary care-giver for her own mother who also has Alzheimer's – a wimpy woman could not face the difficulties with the stamina and strength of character that I've seen Holly exhibit.

    These women are capable, intelligent, godly individuals that strive to live holy lives, walking in humility, serving and loving God while they serve and love others.

    Mr. Brown,

    As I read your post to my husband, he chuckled that you would think of me as a “Jesus Sweetie” or that I would be seething with anger over anything written on this blog. I'm curious as to why you would resort to personal characterizations of individuals you've never met. But trust me, I hold no animosity toward you or anyone that disagrees with statements I've made.

    You've certainly laid out a fine list of topics to spend time debating, and surely you know that you and I would disagree on many of these points. But that is not the purpose of this website, and because of my many responsibilities I am limited in the amount of time I devote to blogging. I am willing to expend myself for women on this site who are seeking counsel, desiring input from an older woman, needing prayer and encouragement, but it would not glorify God to use my time and resources debating with you.

    I'm so glad you've read the True Woman Manifesto and are reading our posts. Although you don't agree with much of what you've read, I hope that something will be of benefit to you on our site.
    posted by Kimberly Wagner
    on Thursday, February 5, 2009 at 1:07 pm
  23. Thank you Kimberly and thanks to all of you other ladies too. I am leaving your website now.
    posted by Tracy Brown
    on Thursday, February 5, 2009 at 11:15 pm
  24. I grew up Methodist:) I do not feel like a door mat, but agree with my whole heart in regards to the manifesto.

    Kimberly and the rest of the ladies are doing a great job teaching, admonishing, and instructing those who will listen in the ways of the Word.

    Does the scripture say that even the words of fools will confound the wise, somewhere?

    Keep up the great work of our Lord! Thank you!
    posted by Paula
    on Monday, February 9, 2009 at 3:52 pm
  25. Thanks Paula,

    What a commendation, thank you for the reference to Paul's defense as a "fool for Christ!" (1 Cor. 1:26-2:10, 4:10).

    Glad to hear from you - and so glad you can agree with the True Woman Manifesto without feeling like a doormat! :-)

    Keep living for and loving Christ!
    posted by Kimberly Wagner
    on Monday, February 9, 2009 at 6:36 pm

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